SWBFGamers

Just a reminder to keep things constructive and civil guys. The last thing we want is this turning into. "Radar Mod? 2.0"

I was actually thinking something along these lines:
I have been doing a lot of work on a third era mod.  I have been able to get it to read whatever level you pick (Stock or Addon, there are a couple exceptions), and then it uses only one lua file that loads everything you need.  What could be done is have an ICW mod basically.  New shell, mission, and extra side files would be all it would need, and it works for every map.  I'm going to try messing with the .lua a little bit more (it's having issues atm).

I am curious as to whether a "radar class randomizer" would work though.

Another thought I had was just have side mods that give the special classes a "sensor drone" that, when deployed, gives a radar effect.  Recon droid kind of does it already, though, I guess.

I don't see how mods can 'ruin tournaments' after all half the maps are mods. Adding radar to them is just as easy as adding the map to the addon folder. Opposing all types of mods for a tournament results in ruining the fun of players who enjoy modifying the aesthetics of their game screen. Modding tools for swbf1 would have never been released if pandemic was against modding the game. It's more like the hate towards mods ruins the fun not the mods themselves.

Quote from: Phobos on July 31, 2013, 04:44:55 PM
I don't see how mods can 'ruin tournaments' after all half the maps are mods. Adding radar to them is just as easy as adding the map to the addon folder. Opposing all types of mods for a tournament results in ruining the fun of players who enjoy modifying the aesthetics of their game screen. Modding tools for swbf1 would have never been released if pandemic was against modding the game. It's more like the hate towards mods ruins the fun not the mods themselves.

Well if minimap hack is a mod then sniperAA is also a mod because pandemic put AA in the game already just took a modification to put it on the sniper also let me give you an example of how it isn't fair and ruins the game...take two people in ships, the way people in planes can kill each other is either directly head on or attacking from behind which would mean you'd have to get behind them. How exactly is that possible if someone is using minimap hack if they know exactly where you are? Exactly how do you navigate behind someone if they can see where you are coming from? And also...if two people are using minimap hack; more times than not they end up flying into each other trying to flank them, not only does it ruin that aspect of the game but air superiority on maps such as Ord Mantell is essential to win.

Quote from: WusiBabyEater on July 31, 2013, 05:27:26 PM
Well if minimap hack is a mod then sniperAA is also a mod because pandemic put AA in the game already just took a modification to put it on the sniper also let me give you an example of how it isn't fair and ruins the game...take two people in ships, the way people in planes can kill each other is either directly head on or attacking from behind which would mean you'd have to get behind them. How exactly is that possible if someone is using minimap hack if they know exactly where you are? Exactly how do you navigate behind someone if they can see where you are coming from? And also...if two people are using minimap hack; more times than not they end up flying into each other trying to flank them, not only does it ruin that aspect of the game but air superiority on maps such as Ord Mantell is essential to win.

Minimap hack is not radar mod, they are not the same thing. Sniper Autoaim is a mod yea because you mod the ODF, its a hack when you develop a trainer that alters the memory. true victory is not about only flanking and relying on cheap kills, its about winning all types of battles, whether from behind or up front. Using radar mod does not mean you're using a minimap hack, since you didn't hack the game memory or build a trainer, you just modded the LVL, like a sniper autoaim ODF. or heat seeking rocket. difference is AA mods are server side mods that can ruin the game, unlike radar which is client side and not forcably limited to certain teams/units. its funny how someone who knows nothing about modding or hacking constantly confuses the plain and simple differences. trainers and lvl files are completely different, not the same thing, one is a hack, the other is a mod. this thread is a vote about radar mod, nothing about hacks.

pandemic added /noaim because they felt AA could be abused. they did not add /noradar because they did not feel radar could be abused. both mods are ODF based.

Quote from: Dark_Phantom on July 31, 2013, 05:39:20 PM
Note:  Recon droid has radar.  A watered down (small radius) version, but STOCK recon has radar.

So does the STOCK AT-AT walkers on Hoth. It was in the ODF for that vehicle I discovered psych0fred's notes on scanning and transmit range. Inarguable proof that the ODF mod code for radar support was added to swbf1 by pandemic intentionally.

Quote from: Phobos on July 31, 2013, 04:44:55 PM
I don't see how mods can 'ruin tournaments' after all half the maps are mods. Adding radar to them is just as easy as adding the map to the addon folder. Opposing all types of mods for a tournament results in ruining the fun of players who enjoy modifying the aesthetics of their game screen. Modding tools for swbf1 would have never been released if pandemic was against modding the game. It's more like the hate towards mods ruins the fun not the mods themselves.

Attention Phobos,

If you read my post correctly, I stated that I was against modifications to be used in ANY Star Wars Tournament such as RADAR and modifications SIMILAR TO RADAR! Maps and texture packs (for example) do not fit in this category. So please, if you are going to debate with me.. do it correctly :). As of now, I simply urge everyone to vote NO on this topic. Radar is a modification that gives an unfair advantage to the user over every other player. Yes, I also do think that a modification SIMILAR TO radar will ruin THE TOURNAMENT(S). The radar modification will ruin the traditional values and settings of the star wars battlefront tournament. Again, I DO NOT CARE IF YOU USE ANY MODIFICATIONS WHATSOEVER IN YOUR OWN SERVER!!

Thank you,

{DarkSith}General.Kevin

*Note: Nothing I say or do on these forums represents {DarkSith} in any way, shape, or form.

Quote from: admiralkevin01 on July 31, 2013, 06:11:14 PM
Attention Phobos,

If you read my post correctly, I stated that I was against modifications to be used in ANY Star Wars Tournament such as RADAR and modifications SIMILAR TO RADAR! Maps and texture packs (for example) do not fit in this category. So please, if you are going to debate with me.. do it correctly :). As of now, I simply urge everyone to vote NO on this topic. Radar is a modification that gives an unfair advantage to the user over every other player. Yes, I also do think that a modification SIMILAR TO radar will ruin THE TOURNAMENT(S). The radar modification will ruin the traditional values and settings of the star wars battlefront tournament. Again, I DO NOT CARE IF YOU USE ANY MODIFICATIONS WHATSOEVER IN YOUR OWN SERVER!!

Thank you,

{DarkSith}General.Kevin

*Note: Nothing I say or do on these forums represents {DarkSith} in any way, shape, or form.

Doesn't really matter, whoever wants to use radar in the tournament will use it anyway. With a slim chance of getting caught.

Quote from: admiralkevin01 on July 31, 2013, 06:11:14 PM
Attention Phobos,

If you read my post correctly, I stated that I was against modifications to be used in ANY Star Wars Tournament such as RADAR and modifications SIMILAR TO RADAR! Maps and texture packs (for example) do not fit in this category. So please, if you are going to debate with me.. do it correctly :). As of now, I simply urge everyone to vote NO on this topic. Radar is a modification that gives an unfair advantage to the user over every other player. Yes, I also do think that a modification SIMILAR TO radar will ruin THE TOURNAMENT(S). The radar modification will ruin the traditional values and settings of the star wars battlefront tournament. Again, I DO NOT CARE IF YOU USE ANY MODIFICATIONS WHATSOEVER IN YOUR OWN SERVER!!

Thank you,

{DarkSith}General.Kevin

*Note: Nothing I say or do on these forums represents {DarkSith} in any way, shape, or form.

You specifically said

Quote from: admiralkevin01 on July 31, 2013, 04:37:18 PM
I believe that radar should be disallowed from any gaming tournament along with any other modifications that allows a user to gain an advantage over the other player

"any mod that gives an advantage." Map skins with removed brush give an advantage, so now you are contradicting yourself by claiming that you aren't against maps and reskins.

Radar is a mod that gives a fair advantage, it is fair because every player can choose to use it or not. It would only be unfair if certain players players could not use the mod, but there is nothing a server host can do to prevent radar, thus making it FAIR. You can't just claim radar is unfair because you CHOOSE not to use it. If you were unable to choose to use radar, then you could argue it is unfair. Like glitching in a wall, once you are in the wall you can kill others without being killed, and prevent them from getting in the wall, this is an example of an unfair advantage. Radar provides a slight advantage to those who choose to utilize it, giving players more information about the battle, and is always available to any players (unless the server is using a mod map specifically designed to counter radar use)

The radar mod has not ruined traditional values and settings because it has existed before any tournaments did, or even modding itself. It did not ruin the first two ICWs and would not ruin this one.

Quote from: Ten Numb on July 31, 2013, 06:13:02 PM
Doesn't really matter, whoever wants to use radar in the tournament will use it anyway. With a slim chance of getting caught.

Then why was this forum created in the first place? We all know who is going to use the radar and who isn't. If that isn't obvious to you, then you need to see your optometrist to check your eyes out again.

Quote from: admiralkevin01 on July 31, 2013, 06:16:32 PM
Then why was this forum created in the first place? We all know who is going to use the radar and who isn't. If that isn't obvious to you, then you need to see your optometrist to check your eyes out again.

I was wondering the same thing lol (about why topic was created, not forum).

Quote from: Phobos on July 31, 2013, 06:15:32 PM
You specifically said"any mod that gives an advantage." Map skins with removed brush give an advantage, so now you are contradicting yourself by claiming that you aren't against maps and reskins.

Radar is a mod that gives a fair advantage, it is fair because every player can choose to use it or not. It would only be unfair if certain players players could not use the mod, but there is nothing a server host can do to prevent radar, thus making it FAIR.

The radar mod has not ruined traditional values and settings because it has existed before any tournaments did, or even modding itself. It did not ruin the first two ICWs and would not ruin this one.

Strike 2... If you could read this of course... I didn't contradict myself because I am not a heavy "mod" user myself. I only know of the normal texture skins for star wars battlefront that change the appearance of a side as in: the rebels will look like imperials or the imperials will look like rebels; different color uniforms; so on and so forth. Custom maps.. how could that ever be an unfair advantage? Maps are always updated or posted somewhere in the mod section of the star wars community..

Quote from: admiralkevin01 on July 31, 2013, 06:19:27 PM
Strike 2... If you could read this of course... I didn't contradict myself because I am not a heavy "mod" user myself. I only know of the normal texture skins for star wars battlefront that change the appearance of a side as in: the rebels will look like imperials or the imperials will look like rebels; different color uniforms; so on and so forth. Custom maps.. how could that ever be an unfair advantage? Maps are always updated or posted somewhere in the mod section of the star wars community..

Your claims about skin and radar mods being "unfair" are ludicrous and incorrect. Re-read my previous post which pointed out your contradiction. At least define the difference  between fair and unfair as I have.

Quote from: Phobos on July 31, 2013, 05:32:22 PM
Minimap hack is not radar mod, they are not the same thing. Sniper Autoaim is a mod yea because you mod the ODF, its a hack when you develop a trainer that alters the memory. true victory is not about only flanking and relying on cheap kills, its about winning all types of battles, whether from behind or up front. Using radar mod does not mean you're using a minimap hack, since you didn't hack the game memory or build a trainer, you just modded the LVL, like a sniper autoaim ODF. or heat seeking rocket. difference is AA mods are server side mods that can ruin the game, unlike radar which is client side and not forcably limited to certain teams/units. its funny how someone who knows nothing about modding or hacking constantly confuses the plain and simple differences. trainers and lvl files are completely different, not the same thing, one is a hack, the other is a mod. this thread is a vote about radar mod, nothing about hacks.

pandemic added /noaim because they felt AA could be abused. they did not add /noradar because they did not feel radar could be abused. both mods are ODF based.

  Its funny how you completely ignored my example on how it is bad or more over think I don't know how to mod haha...I actually do know how to mod but in my opinion swbf mods suck, so that why I don't waist my time modding in a 10 year old game and then brag how amazing they are hahaha...And I do know how to make the radar mod hack unlike half of the people who use it and which I doubt you were the one who originally created it. 

     I voted no on minimap hack because it diminishes game play in restricting not only general plan making but over all strategy. I for one would not only applaud someone who flanked my plan but id be suprised because we talk about map strategy as a group as a clan and as brothers at arms to formulate, calculate and actually use my brain as well as everyone elses to think of where the enemy is coming from how many to expect and how to counter what they plan. With minimap hack all of that is not only tarnished and ruined but completely impossible to do since one person on the enemy team could potentially blow the entire plan if they are using the hack which brings me to this point on cheating in an online video game "Cheating in video games involves a video game player using non-standard methods for creating an advantage beyond normal gameplay, usually to make the game easier" knowing where your enemy from using minimap hack is a very clear advantage beyond normal gameplay and ruins peoples fun in general....if you haven't ever planned a strategy before I invite anyone who hasn't to a faux plan making chatroom assuming minimap hack isn't implemented in the tournament and show you how WUSI's done it forever.

No one is going to change their position on this. The people against radar will continue to think so. Those for it won't be against it. Each side will think they can use reason to make their point, but in the end no one will change their position. So let's leave it at that.

Quote from: Phobos on July 31, 2013, 06:21:57 PM
Your claims about skin and radar mods being "unfair" are ludicrous and incorrect. Re-read my previous post which pointed out your contradiction. At least define the difference  between fair and unfair as I have.

This is hopeless dude.. Let me spell it to you in simple terms even you might understand.
1. radar and modifications similar to radar = bad
2. skins = good
3. maps = good

I hope I didn't go to fast for you this time

Quote from: WusiBabyEater on July 31, 2013, 06:23:39 PM
  Its funny how you completely ignored my example on how it is bad or more over think I don't know how to mod haha...I actually do know how to mod but in my opinion swbf mods suck, so that why I don't waist my time modding in a 10 year old game and then brag how amazing they are hahaha...And I do know how to make the radar mod hack unlike half of the people who use it and which I doubt you were the one who originally created it. 

     I voted no on minimap hack because it diminishes game play in restricting not only general plan making but over all strategy. I for one would not only applaud someone who flanked my plan but id be suprised because we talk about map strategy as a group as a clan and as brothers at arms to formulate, calculate and actually use my brain as well as everyone elses to think of where the enemy is coming from how many to expect and how to counter what they plan. With minimap hack all of that is not only tarnished and ruined but completely impossible to do since one person on the enemy team could potentially blow the entire plan if they are using the hack which brings me to this point on cheating in an online video game "Cheating in video games involves a video game player using non-standard methods for creating an advantage beyond normal gameplay, usually to make the game easier" knowing where your enemy from using minimap hack is a very clear advantage beyond normal gameplay and ruins peoples fun in general....if you haven't ever planned a strategy before I invite anyone who hasn't to a faux plan making chatroom assuming minimap hack isn't implemented in the tournament and show you how WUSI's done it forever.

Your ord mantel example was irrelevent and made no sense, so i didn't ignore it, it was already invalidated. You say mods suck but really you just have no respect for the time and effort modders have put into helping this community stay alive.

Radar mod is not a hack like i said, it expands gameplay to higher levels, quoting wikipedia is generally frowned upon here as welll just ask SK.

Generally I see play style difference like this:
Radar = Calculating your next move, seeing where enemies are, trying to make the best decision what CP to go to, more strategic, more action, more planning required than just random flanking, etc.
No radar = blind guessing where to go, hoping that through sheer luck you will make the right strategic move, limited less skill play, etc.

Quote from: WusiBabyEater on July 31, 2013, 06:23:39 PM
.I actually do know how to mod but in my opinion swbf mods suck, so that why I don't waist my time modding in a 10 year old game and then brag how amazing they are hahaha...And I do know how to make the radar mod hack unlike half of the people who use it and which I doubt you were the one who originally created it. 

I Already said Fred created it, not me. You can't hack or mod, and if you dont waste time modding then why do you waste so much time complaining about people who mod or use mods? Just to be a mod hater troll ofc.

Quote from: WusiBabyEater on July 31, 2013, 06:23:39 PM
in my opinion swbf mods suck

in my opinion people who complain about swbf mods suck

Quote from: admiralkevin01 on July 31, 2013, 06:24:30 PM
This is hopeless dude.. Let me spell it to you in simple terms even you might understand.
1. radar and modifications similar to radar = good, and fair
2. skins = good, and fair
3. maps = good, and fair

I hope I didn't go to fast for you this time

Corrected, see the fact that they are fair and not bad or unfair. Ultimately the admins have final say, not the poll (unless Oven says otherwise)

Quote from: Buckler on July 31, 2013, 06:26:22 PM
Ive looked at the results.  The IDC was a bad choice.  Depending on how you count them, it can look like 50%-50%.  Thus the edict on the compromise.

If no one wants to compromise, then case closed.

please explain the compromise offer in more detail

Quote from: Phobos on July 31, 2013, 06:26:54 PM
Corrected, see the fact that they are fair and not bad or unfair.

Uhh Yea man.. If you could interpret my other passages, I meant to say that
1 = radar bad
2 = skins good
3 = maps good

I didn't state anything other than that in my previous passages.
I also salute babyeater for making the best post I have seen on here..

Quote from: Buckler on July 31, 2013, 06:28:51 PM
I am hoping that things will get worked out on their own.

Otherwise, there is that parable about splitting the baby in half  ;)

BTW its not 50/50
Yes.
12 (32.4%)
No.
19 (51.4%)
Idc.
6 (16.2%)

Quote from: admiralkevin01 on July 31, 2013, 06:30:33 PM
BTW its not 50/50
Yes.
12 (32.4%)
No.
19 (51.4%)
Idc.
6 (16.2%)

Go back and read my post again.  And when I looked at it there were 36 total votes.

Quote from: admiralkevin01 on July 31, 2013, 06:29:35 PM
Uhh Yea man.. If you could interpret my other passages, I meant to say that
1. radar and modifications similar to radar = good, and fair
2. skins = good, and fair
3. maps = good, and fair

I didn't state anything other than that in my previous passages.
I also salute babyeater for making the best post I have seen on here..

Saluting the guy who says all swbf mods suck, really says alot about you. Radar is not bad just because you think it is, yea as I have already explained that it is a fair advantage, like skins and no brush map mods. So your opinion is your opinion, but not one backed by logic.

Quote from: WusiBabyEater on July 31, 2013, 06:23:39 PM
I actually do know how to mod but in my opinion swbf mods suck, so that why I don't waist my time modding in a 10 year old game and then brag how amazing they are hahaha...

Quote from: admiralkevin01 on July 31, 2013, 06:29:35 PM
I also salute babyeater for making the best post I have seen on here..

That might be sig worthy itself.

Quote from: Helios on July 31, 2013, 06:35:41 PM
the difference between a modification and a hack. Hack = Something thats changes the .exe in anyway shape or format, Modification = The term mod is derived from the act of modifying a game. To mod a game is to create custom levels, objects, characters, or even unique or stand-alone game from an existing game engine. Many games come with an editor that allow for easier modding. A person who mods a game is called a modder.

Pretty much, anyone who is calling radar or any other mod a hack over and over is trying to derail the thread.

Quote from: Phobos on July 31, 2013, 06:33:08 PM
Saluting the guy who says all swbf mods suck, really says alot about you. Radar is not bad just because you think it is, as I have already explained that it is a fair advantage, like skins and no brush map mods. So your opinion is your opinion, but not one backed by logic.

All hail Wusi

Its sad people cant see the obvious, im befuddled that some people on this forum are so incompetent and do not know the difference between a modification and a hack. Hack = Something thats changes the .exe in anyway shape or format, Modification = The term mod is derived from the act of modifying a game. To mod a game is to create custom levels, objects, characters, or even unique or stand-alone game from an existing game engine. Many games come with an editor that allow for easier modding. A person who mods a game is called a modder. Get it through to your god d*mn head people. Infact heres the radar link =)   so you can stop your whining because its an unfair advantage, well if you do not choose to download it, thats your fault so don't complain in the ICW3.

Quote from: Helios on July 31, 2013, 06:35:41 PM
Its sad people cant see the obvious, im befuddled that some people on this forum are so incompetent and do not know the difference between a modification and a hack. Hack = Something thats changes the .exe in anyway shape or format, Modification = The term mod is derived from the act of modifying a game. To mod a game is to create custom levels, objects, characters, or even unique or stand-alone game from an existing game engine. Many games come with an editor that allow for easier modding. A person who mods a game is called a modder. Get it through to your god d*mn head people. Infact heres the radar link =)  http://www.mediafire.com/?267c5aez2aaa9o6 so you can stop your whining because its an unfair advantage, well if you do not choose to download it, thats your fault so don't complain in the ICW3.

Why even have this poll? It looks pretty obvious you are gonna have it in the tourny in the first place at least from the way you said it and...Led that idc part could be a yes or no either way so really that entire idc area is invalid.

Quote from: WusiBabyEater on July 31, 2013, 06:48:43 PM
.Led that idc part could be a yes or no either way so really that entire idc area is invalid.

Read my posts again. 

If they don't care about radar being allowed then they are not directly opposed to it, so the poll is flawed IMO. I can only hope that in 10 more years there won't be this much crying about a simple mod for an old video game.

What is with your negative attitude? Radar is part of the game, learn the facts, as its part of the game, thats like saying dying is a hack, thats how i see it, and no, ive been for radar for a solid year and four months, ive been with that group of people for nine months. No i wanted to see peoples opinion, i had decided this a day ago, if you dont want wusi to participate, it wont affect the ICW3, so please continue hating radar.

Quote from: Shazam on July 31, 2013, 07:13:00 PM
If you do not want to play in a battle if your opponent has radar, then just participate in the anti-radar mod maps.  I will work with the modders to ensure that there will be maps that prohibit radar.

If you want to use radar, go ahead and use it.  We can't stop you from using it.

If you don't care, then you can decide whether or not you want to download the radar mod.

This sounds good to me.  I just watched this whole thread explode into something that it shouldn't have.  It turned from a semi-healthy radar discussion to full blown bashing of two sides.

If you're the better team, it's not going to matter in the long haul if you have any mods or not.  The best team will win.  The tournament will be played long enough that it will clearly separate the winners from losers, and one team will not win every single match with mods alone.

Quote from: {212} Nixo on July 31, 2013, 08:26:06 PM
Wow. Now we can see how far we have come, how things have changed.
Last summer radar was out of the question, yet people still used it even though they knew the rules. Now we are debating something that was always going to have a predictable outcome. Split in two sides.
For a clan to be so associated with radar so much that they will not even go without it, I think is slightly ridiculous  ???  How come you entered the previous ICW's when radar was not allowed? Although I know some used it? Just questions I would like to know the answer to. No disrespect.
I also would completely disagree with your interpretations of the radar mod Phobos, but that will just start another argument I guess.

(212th) is prominently against the radar mod and would not use it against an opponent that is not thus giving us an advantage. We will play without an advantage throughout.
I will be the (212th)'s main representative.
Mart will be here for when I am not.

I find it even more ridiculous that clans will not play just because other players want to use radar, even when offered the chance to use the same advantage. [FC] played SWBF1 for 3 years without radar mod, but we have evolved to the point where we no longer view mods as obstacles to fun, rather the opposite. I went without radar in previous tournaments just to prove that I could (I was dared to by SK), and they were not as fun for me. We have dealt with enough complaints about radar to cement our decision to only participate in tournaments which have no rules against it, simply to avoid more conflicts. As far as I know it was acceptable to use radar in the previous ICWs because there was no regulation standards enforcing no-radar, and plenty of our enemies used it regardless. I know it was initially drafted into the rules that radar would not be allowed, but this rule was abandoned after Oven said it could not be practically enforced.
You can disagree with what I have said if you want, but the facts I've stated about the radar mod is backed by the modding documentation and even psych0fred himself, so really there is no need to argue about it.

{212} are promptly against radar yet they have it? Not trying to start anything but a bit hypocritical dont you think nixo? I understand you can speak for yourself but not for your entire clan.

Quote from: Helios on July 31, 2013, 08:32:29 PM
{212} are promptly against radar yet they have it? Not trying to start anything but a bit hypocritical dont you think nixo? I understand you can speak for yourself but not for your entire clan.

What if we have it? I've made radar but so what? Doesn't mean we'll use it in tournaments. I find it a little annoying and rude that an admin is calling a clan out.

Quote from: Ten Numb on July 31, 2013, 08:45:21 PM
What if we have it? I've made radar but so what? Doesn't mean we'll use it in tournaments.

That means nothing unless you have proof, lets not carry on this discussiom here.

Quote from: Helios on July 31, 2013, 08:48:57 PM
That means nothing unless you have proof, lets not carry on this discussiom here.

Proof of what? The tournament has not even started and you are already accusing us of using radar. Man, the irony.

Arguing about radar is like arguing about religion

I would like to see Helios and Rage use radar in a different game online and see what happens, that would be funny. lol

Quote from: WusiBabyEater on July 31, 2013, 09:21:43 PM
I would like to see Helios and Rage use radar in a different game online and see what happens, that would be funny. lol

There are plenty of other games where it is even more accepted than in swbf1 as part of the game and nobody complains about it.  LoL this is the only game I can think of where ppl make such a big deal over mods. I'd like to see you get over it one day.

Quote from: Phobos on July 31, 2013, 09:36:24 PM
There are plenty of other games where it is even more accepted than in swbf1 as part of the game and nobody complains about it.

Call of Duty games would be one of them.

Quote from: [FC]Elite on July 31, 2013, 09:39:55 PM
Call of Duty games would be one of them.

oh please don't get me started with COD games....lol that's why you play it

Quote from: WusiBabyEater on July 31, 2013, 09:44:33 PM
oh please don't get me started with COD games....lol that's why you play it

I play it because its fun and somewhat realistic. Nobody whines about uav in CoD lol. This is kinda off topic now since its another game.

Quote from: [FC]Elite on July 31, 2013, 09:49:04 PM
I play it because its fun and somewhat realistic. Nobody whines about uav in CoD lol. This is kinda off topic now since its another game.

I don't know if you're trolling but UAV is not a mod,its part of the vanilla game and COD is an arcade shooter---not realistic

Quote from: WusiBabyEater on July 31, 2013, 09:57:37 PM
I don't know if you're trolling but UAV is not a mod,its part of the vanilla game and COD is an arcade shooter---not realistic

What im trying to point out is that nobody complains about UAV in cod. When you get 3 kills you get the option to use it or not just like in swbf were you have the option to use it or not.

Quote from: [FC]Elite on July 31, 2013, 10:00:40 PM
What im trying to point out is that nobody complains about UAV in cod. When you get 3 kills you get the option to use it or not just like in swbf were you have the option to use it or not.

because UAV is originally in it but the radar hack in swbf wasn't in vanilla game and should of never been an option. Radars not supposed be in swbf because it ruins the online that's the reason why its so hard to organize a tournament like this.

Real world= Conservative VS Liberal

SWBFI world= Radar VS No Radar

:slap:

Led, feel free to delete this post if you feel it should be--if that's the case and Phobos doesn't see it, could you forward it to him?  I'm blocked.

I'll preface this with my opinion on radar: it's not my cup of tea.  That said, I don't think that the use of radar significantly changes ability and as long as people are honest about whether or not they use radar, it's not worth the arguments that it raises.

Also, very few—if any—of my comments in this private message will make sense when out of context.

Quote from: Phobos on July 31, 2013, 05:32:22 PM
Minimap hack is not radar mod, they are not the same thing. Sniper Autoaim is a mod yea because you mod the ODF, its a hack when you develop a trainer that alters the memory. true victory is not about only flanking and relying on cheap kills, its about winning all types of battles, whether from behind or up front. Using radar mod does not mean you're using a minimap hack, since you didn't hack the game memory or build a trainer, you just modded the LVL, like a sniper autoaim ODF. or heat seeking rocket. difference is AA mods are server side mods that can ruin the game, unlike radar which is client side and not forcably limited to certain teams/units. its funny how someone who knows nothing about modding or hacking constantly confuses the plain and simple differences. trainers and lvl files are completely different, not the same thing, one is a hack, the other is a mod. this thread is a vote about radar mod, nothing about hacks.

pandemic added /noaim because they felt AA could be abused. they did not add /noradar because they did not feel radar could be abused. both mods are ODF based.

It seems as if your attempt to distinguish sniper auto aim mod from minimap mod—with respect to the ICW—on the grounds that the former is a host-side mod while the latter is a client-side mod is inappropriate (but it's inapposite only in specific cases, such as the ICW).  If there's a general rule against using auto aim, it'll involve the /noaim command.  The /noaim commands curtails auto aim for all players, affecting all player's ability to use auto aim equally.  If there's a general rule against radar, it—just like the /noaim command—will affect all player's ability to use radar equally.

Additionally, I see a distinction in your notion that the presence of the /noaim and the absence of a  /noradar command means that Pandemic  "did not feel radar could be abused."  When Pandemic released the game, they did so without the knowledge that people would change the scanning and transmit range whereas they released the game knowing that people might possibly want to use a controller while playing SWBF.  Just because they dealt with the devil they knew of does not mean that they approve of the devil they didn't know.  (Because you're probably thinking that I have some sort of vendetta against FC, I will state that this distinction falls apart if it can be proven that Pandemic knew that people would expand radar—see my comments to your next post.)

Quote from: Phobos on July 31, 2013, 06:02:15 PM
So does the STOCK AT-AT walkers on Hoth. It was in the ODF for that vehicle I discovered psych0fred's notes on scanning and transmit range. Inarguable proof that the ODF mod code for radar support was added to swbf1 by pandemic intentionally.

With respect to your last sentence, you are ABSOLUTELY right that that the presence of certain instances of radar in the stock version shows that Pandemic intentionally implemented radar support.  However, there's a pretty large jump from Pandemic intentionally allowing radar in limited conditions to allowing radar in every condition.  That said, I commend you for not explicitly making this jump. 

Quote from: Phobos on July 31, 2013, 06:15:32 PM
You specifically said"any mod that gives an advantage." Map skins with removed brush give an advantage, so now you are contradicting yourself by claiming that you aren't against maps and reskins.

Radar is a mod that gives a fair advantage, it is fair because every player can choose to use it or not. It would only be unfair if certain players players could not use the mod, but there is nothing a server host can do to prevent radar, thus making it FAIR. You can't just claim radar is unfair because you CHOOSE not to use it. If you were unable to choose to use radar, then you could argue it is unfair. Like glitching in a wall, once you are in the wall you can kill others without being killed, and prevent them from getting in the wall, this is an example of an unfair advantage. Radar provides a slight advantage to those who choose to utilize it, giving players more information about the battle, and is always available to any players (unless the server is using a mod map specifically designed to counter radar use)

The radar mod has not ruined traditional values and settings because it has existed before any tournaments did, or even modding itself. It did not ruin the first two ICWs and would not ruin this one.

You note that "there is nothing a server host can do to prevent radar, thus making it FAIR," which seems to imply that if there were something that a server host could do to prevent radar, then radar would be unfair.  Do  you mean that if a server host could selectively prevent radar, then radar would be unfair?  If you did, I agree with that.   But nowhere do you say anything about a host selectively preventing radar, just that radar in general is prevented which would mean that everybody is playing without radar (or, with radar if there was a way to force radar).

Your second point about how the only people who can argue that radar is unfair are those unable to install radar is, in general, a good point to whose spirit I subscribe.

Finally, the radar mod did NOT exist before modding—but this is an issue I've addressed earlier.

Quote from: Phobos on July 31, 2013, 06:25:56 PM
Your ord mantel example was irrelevent and made no sense, so i didn't ignore it, it was already invalidated. You say mods suck but really you just have no respect for the time and effort modders have put into helping this community stay alive.

Radar mod is not a hack like i said, it expands gameplay to higher levels, quoting wikipedia is generally frowned upon here as welll just ask SK.

Generally I see play style difference like this:
Radar = Calculating your next move, seeing where enemies are, trying to make the best decision what CP to go to, more strategic, more action, more planning required than just random flanking, etc.
No radar = blind guessing where to go, hoping that through sheer luck you will make the right strategic move, limited less skill play, etc.
I Already said Fred created it, not me. You can't hack or mod, and if you dont waste time modding then why do you waste so much time complaining about people who mod or use mods? Just to be a mod hater troll ofc.
in my opinion people who complain about swbf mods suck

I'm just curious, what factors other than map layout—in that nobody wants to capture the CFC, regardless of whether or not they have radar—make a CP desirable to capture?

Also, I'm curious of your definition of "action."  It seems to me that, all other things being equal, knowing one's opponent's location could allow you to dispatch them quicker.  The engagements would be faster, sure, but there would be less fighting, which seems to indicate less action.

Quote from: Phobos on July 31, 2013, 06:33:08 PM
Saluting the guy who says all swbf mods suck, really says alot about you. Radar is not bad just because you think it is, as I have already explained that it is a fair advantage, like skins and no brush map mods. So your opinion is your opinion, but not one backed by logic.
That might be sig worthy itself.
Pretty much, anyone who is calling radar or any other mod a hack over and over is trying to derail the thread.

(Emphasis added.)

Where do you describe "skins and no brush mod maps" as being, presumably in general, a fair advantage?  The abilities required to make a no brush mod map greatly exceed those required to make the radar mod, meaning that unless a no brush mod map is shared, it's an unfair advantage because it's not really readily accessible.

Quote from: WusiBabyEater on July 31, 2013, 10:36:49 PM
because UAV is originally in it but the radar hack in swbf wasn't in vanilla game and should of never been an option. Radars not supposed be in swbf because it ruins the online that's the reason why its so hard to organize a tournament like this.

The radar mod is vanilla (see the recon and AT-AT) and it should be an option and that's why pandemic made it one. It does not "ruin online", players like you who complain about it do. It's supposed to be there and that's why it is there. It's not hard to organize the ICW because of this, the admins could have decided the rule beforehand instead of making a pointless poll, defining whether or not its allowed. There's no hack involved, get in the AT-AT on Hoth with your vanilla files and see that there is a stock radar range of 60.

Quote from: BlackScorpion on July 31, 2013, 10:56:12 PM
Led, feel free to delete this post if you feel it should be--if that's the case and Phobos doesn't see it, could you forward it to him?  I'm blocked.

You're perm-blocked for a reason (trolling), and I ask Led please not to forward me any messages sent from you.

Quote from: BlackScorpion on July 31, 2013, 10:56:12 PMI'll preface this with my opinion on radar: it's not my cup of tea.  That said, I don't think that the use of radar significantly changes ability and as long as people are honest about whether or not they use radar, it's not worth the arguments that it raises.

Also, very few—if any—of my comments in this private message will make sense when out of context.

It seems as if your attempt to distinguish sniper auto aim mod from minimap mod—with respect to the ICW—on the grounds that the former is a host-side mod while the latter is a client-side mod is inappropriate (but it's inapposite only in specific cases, such as the ICW).  If there's a general rule against using auto aim, it'll involve the /noaim command.  The /noaim commands curtails auto aim for all players, affecting all player's ability to use auto aim equally.  If there's a general rule against radar, it—just like the /noaim command—will affect all player's ability to use radar equally.

/noaim was added to 1.2 so hosts could disable autoaim in their servers. It is not 'inappropriate' to distinguish a server sided mod from a client sided mod. A rule that can be enforced server side without using mods, is different from a rule that can only be enforced using client side mods. A rule against radar does not have an "equal effect" against a player's ability to use radar because it has to be enforced much differently than /noaim. Although I would agree that the rules against autoaim or rules against radar are equally authoritative, it is a matter of how the rules are FORCED to be followed that makes the difference.

Quote from: BlackScorpion on July 31, 2013, 10:56:12 PMAdditionally, I see a distinction in your notion that the presence of the /noaim and the absence of a  /noradar command means that Pandemic  "did not feel radar could be abused."  When Pandemic released the game, they did so without the knowledge that people would change the scanning and transmit range whereas they released the game knowing that people might possibly want to use a controller while playing SWBF.  Just because they dealt with the devil they knew of does not mean that they approve of the devil they didn't know.  (Because you're probably thinking that I have some sort of vendetta against FC, I will state that this distinction falls apart if it can be proven that Pandemic knew that people would expand radar—see my comments to your next post.)

You say pandemic did not have the knowledge that players could change scanning/transmit range, this is untrue, they released the modding tools knowing players could change these values, and did not do anything to stop it because they didn't feel radar could be abused.

They did know about radar codes and for you to say they didn't is untrue, just look at the ODF codes and you will see. It has been proven that pandemic knew radar could be expanded, even Fred himself has said this is the case. Pandemic did not feel radar could be abused or else they would have added an option for server hosts to disable it.

Quote from: psych0fred"I think if users want to play a map where the radar is set really high is up to them.  I don't mind it"

ex-pandemic developer for SWBF1 saying it is up to the players if they want to use expanded radar, which proves they did not feel it was a cheat or unfair advantage that had to be countered. Now please tell me where in the world you came up with the idea that pandemic had no knowledge of the radar codes, as the ODF notes also prove they were fully aware of it, and they chose to release the modding tools so that players could expand upon these. I will post more fred quotes from his website directly if you still don't understand these facts.

Quote from: BlackScorpion on July 31, 2013, 10:56:12 PMWith respect to your last sentence, you are ABSOLUTELY right that that the presence of certain instances of radar in the stock version shows that Pandemic intentionally implemented radar support.  However, there's a pretty large jump from Pandemic intentionally allowing radar in limited conditions to allowing radar in every condition.  That said, I commend you for not explicitly making this jump. 

You note that "there is nothing a server host can do to prevent radar, thus making it FAIR," which seems to imply that if there were something that a server host could do to prevent radar, then radar would be unfair.  Do  you mean that if a server host could selectively prevent radar, then radar would be unfair?  If you did, I agree with that.   But nowhere do you say anything about a host selectively preventing radar, just that radar in general is prevented which would mean that everybody is playing without radar (or, with radar if there was a way to force radar).

I didn't say that just because a server host can't prevent radar, that it is fair because of this reason only. It would be unfair if only certain players in the server could use radar, and not anyone who wants to install it. It would be unfair to use radar if your opponent did not have the choice to use it, but that choice is always available (unless the tournament is using specific client side mods that disallow radar, which can't be replaced with modified stock sides). Whether or not the server host can prevent its use does not change the fact it is a fair advantage because it is available to all players who choose to use it. An unfair advantage is one limited to only certain players as I said re-read my previous posts where I mentioned the wallhack analogy. Another example of unfair mod is giving empire vanguards a "heat seeking rocket" autoaim through the ODF, because players on rebel teams cannot utilize the same advantage by choice.
   
Also, what I did say is that a host cannot selectively prevent radar without the client being forced to use specific mods that don't allow it. This is not the case with autoaim mods, which are completely disabled when the server host has added /noaim

Quote from: BlackScorpion on July 31, 2013, 10:56:12 PMFinally, the radar mod did NOT exist before modding—but this is an issue I've addressed earlier.

You have presented zero proof of this false claim. The radar mod (scanning and transmit ranges) DID exist before modding, it existed in the stock recon and AT-AT walker ODF files BEFORE THE MODDING TOOLS WERE RELEASED. You really need to get the facts straight and read the modding documentation and ODF notes before you pretend like radar didn't exist before Fred released BFBuilder. Radar has existed ever since the day SWBF1 came out, technically even before this. It was created when pandemic developed the scanning and transmit range codes for the ODF language sometime during SWBF1 development. Your points are flawed and attempt to derail the facts I've presented which are backed by the modding documetation and developers notes.

Quote from: BlackScorpion on July 31, 2013, 10:56:12 PMI'm just curious, what factors other than map layout—in that nobody wants to capture the CFC, regardless of whether or not they have radar—make a CP desirable to capture?

Also, I'm curious of your definition of "action."  It seems to me that, all other things being equal, knowing one's opponent's location could allow you to dispatch them quicker.  The engagements would be faster, sure, but there would be less fighting, which seems to indicate less action.

Not sure what people's reasons for capping CPs has to do with it, but with radar you have a better idea of which CPs are less protected, and can save your team from losing more effectively than if you didn't have radar. Some players want to capture the CFC regardless of whether they are using radar or not, but radar will help let them know from which direction it is better to attack this command post from(RE or court entrance).

By action I mean fighting, there is more face-to-face combat if everyone in the server is using radar. There is not less fighting just because a small skirmish may end quicker, because there are overall going to be more skirmishes when players are using radar.  When all players are using radar, there is less running around, having to rely on sneaking up behind people and flanking to get kills, and the battles go faster and are more intense, because after you die the battle is quicker to resume than if you didn't have radar. Players using radar don't have to try to guess where the enemy is, you always know where they are, they always know where you are, so the battle can be sustained at greater intensity for longer time. It makes wars more enjoyable for [FC] when we fight opponenents who use radar, since the battles are more focused towards face to face combat, we enjoy these type of battles more. I would even go so far as to say the battle is more fair when everyone knows where everyone else is on the map, than when nobody knows where everyone else is.

Quote from: BlackScorpion on July 31, 2013, 10:56:12 PM(Emphasis added.)

Where do you describe "skins and no brush mod maps" as being, presumably in general, a fair advantage?  The abilities required to make a no brush mod map greatly exceed those required to make the radar mod, meaning that unless a no brush mod map is shared, it's an unfair advantage because it's not really readily accessible.

Just like radar mod, no brush skin mods are also fair advantages, because their use is NOT limited to only certain players. Again, an unfair advantage would be a server-sided mod that breaks the balance for certain teams or units, which clients/players cannot override through modding their own LVLs. Read my post above about autoaim rockets mod being unfair advantage and see how much different that is from radar, which can always be enabled at player's will.

All players can download no brush mod maps, and you are incorrect about the difficulty required, as both are very simple and essentially they are equally simple to mod. Radar mod requires a 2 line ODF code change and hit munge, no brush requires reskinning TGA file by just removing the foliage textures and replacing with alpha channel and hit munge. Anyone who knows how to use an image editor should have no trouble removing brush using this very simple method. The no brush mod would not be unfair if the other side chose not to use it simply because they chose not to learn how to mod.

A mod advantage is not unfair just because certain players lack the incentive to utilize these advantages. Also nobody can use the excuse that the knowledge is hidden, because there are several tutorials on this website which blatantly explain how to make these mods. A mod advantage is unfair if the server host can and does force only certain players to be able to utilize the advantage, another example of this would be the host adding autoheal to one team but not the other. So like I said, radar crosshairs and no brush mods are available to all players who choose to use them, and this fact alone makes these mods fair potential advantages.

I guess there goes the rule about not talking about radar...

Firstly let's talk about when radar became an issue. When was it? Not long after the Gamespy shutdown. The reason I do believe behind this is the player base suddenly took a massive hit, most of the people who would say no to something like the radar mod were lost. Thus the player base that knew about radar and supported it suddenly weren't the minority. I am basing this off two things. The fact it started becoming an issue after the Gamespy shutdown and Led once asked an almost full server if one of your controversial mods should be publicly distributed. Not a single person said yes.

So then suddenly after the shutdown the minority held a much larger part of the community when the player base took a hit. This has led to where we are now fractured over it.

But I think the real question is. Radar, is it a cheat? Well this isn't a simple question to answer. So we'll start with how adding to a class is adding a design element.

When you add those two simple definitions to an .odf there is a lot more you are changing than just letting yourself see the mini-map. You are adding a new gameplay element to SWBF. You can now see where everyone is. Now here is the catch if you are making a custom side mod that isn't intended to replace the stock sides then everyone else is going to have it as well and you designed it so that would. (And presumably added other gameplay mechanics based around that.) So in that regard no it isn't a cheat.

But when you just add the lines to the stock sides and then go online with them it is. Why? Because Pandemic didn't design the game with radar being always on in mind, they designed it with the fact that it would be off in mind. This allows for players to flank and snipers to hide. Just like a real battle. So going online with radar enabled is cheating because the game wasn't designed to have it always on. It was designed so snipers could use recon droids to help out their teams by deploying them. (Don't believe me on this Phobos? Ask psych0fred.)

But radar is enabled when the enemy reinforcements get low. So Pandmeic did design the game to have radar. Yes they sure did, they enable it so the end of the game isn't dragged out by some player hiding.


Now you are probably going to chuck everything I have said out the window if you use radar. Which I can not stop you from doing. But just stop and think for a minute. Are you doing that because you think you are right? Or are you doing it because you don't want to admit you are wrong? Think carefully on that, don't just punch out a reply on the keyboard.

Quote from: SleepKiller on August 01, 2013, 03:57:02 AM
The fact it started becoming an issue after the Gamespy shutdown and Led once asked an almost full server if one of your controversial mods should be publicly distributed. Not a single person said yes.

If you would have asked this question in the FC server everyone would have said yes.  I offered to distribute it publicly so as to invalidate the complaints of it being unfair due to not being available to all players. Players still complained about radar before gamespy shut down, but not as much as they have since. The top players throughout swbf1 history have all been in support of radar (habi, sirpimped, alpha, etc.) These are people who for the most part have played swbf1 longer than all the whiners calling it a cheat.

Quote from: SleepKiller on August 01, 2013, 03:57:02 AM
But when you just add the lines to the stock sides and then go online with them it is.

It's not a cheat to add these lines to the stock sides and play them online, unless the server has specifically said this is the case. In a server where there are no rules about radar , it can't be considered a cheat.

DP asked  psych0fred and he said he does not believe radar to be a cheat, read my post above.

Quote from: SleepKiller on August 01, 2013, 03:57:02 AM
Now you are probably going to chuck everything I have said out the window if you use radar. Which I can not stop you from doing. But just stop and think for a minute. Are you doing that because you think you are right? Or are you doing it because you don't want to admit you are wrong? Think carefully on that, don't just punch out a reply on the keyboard.

You have not disproven the various points I posted which prove radar is a fair advantage. Therefore I have essentially defended the truth, which is backed by modding documentation and fred himself. It is not wrong for me to use mods or defend the use of mods which are fair advantages that any player can utilize if they so choose. I know what I've said is right.

Quote from: PhobosI did ask psych0fred and he said he does not believe radar to be a cheat, read my post above.

Show me the exact message you sent him and his exact reply then.

Quote from: SleepKiller on August 01, 2013, 04:14:42 AM
Show me the exact message you sent him and his exact reply then.

Oops, correction, DP emailed him not me. I'm sure he can post the entire email here, I posted his response.

Now if psych0fred himself had directly said that radar is not suppose to be used online and is a cheat/unfair, I would change my views. But as a matter of fact this is what he said:

Quote from: Psych0Fred"I think if users want to play a map where the radar is set really high is up to them.  I don't mind it because it's just as easy to use the disguise to counter it if people really want to counter/balance the gameplay."

Like he says, it is up to the players. Or in this case, the tournament admins / server hosts. I have not tested using the disguise kit to counter radar though, so I'm not sure how that works. If Fred doesn't mind other ppl using radar, then I certainly have no problem with it.

Quote from: Buckler on August 01, 2013, 05:14:29 AM
What fred thinks on this topic if irrelevant, and will be until he starts playing MP.

So a swbf1 developer's opinion is irrelevant unless he actively plays online? I think his opinion on the topic is quite important either way. Buckler would you still be saying Fred's opinion about radar is 'irrelevant' if Fred had instead claimed it was a cheat?

Quote from: Phobos on August 01, 2013, 04:16:43 AM
Oops, correction, DP emailed him not me. I'm sure he can post the entire email here, I posted his response.

Now if psych0fred himself had directly said that radar is not suppose to be used online and is a cheat/unfair, I would change my views. But as a matter of fact this is what he said:
Like he says, it is up to the players. Or in this case, the tournament admins / server hosts. I have not tested using the disguise kit to counter radar though, so I'm not sure how that works. If Fred doesn't mind other ppl using radar, then I certainly have no problem with it.

I'm pretty certain he is talking about mod maps. Ask him these exact words.

QuoteIf I edit the stock sides so that radar scanning and transmitting range was so high it covered the entire map. And then went to play an online game with those sides. Would I be cheating  by doing so?

If he replies back with no, then I'll stand down. Doesn't mean I'll agree with it or think it is right. But you won't here anymore from me on the subject. (Only if you ask him those exact words though.)

I'll do that.

Edit: I sent him the email. In my opinion, actual swbf1 developer would have the most say of all.

I personally don't care who is and who isn't using radar.  I think that there are some instances where its use can be fair and some where its use can be unfair.  Remember that when accusing me of "trying to ruin the SWBF community by crying about radar." 

Quote from: Phobos on August 01, 2013, 02:35:49 AM
/noaim was added to 1.2 so hosts could disable autoaim in their servers. It is not 'inappropriate' to distinguish a server sided mod from a client sided mod. A rule that can be enforced server side without using mods, is different from a rule that can only be enforced using client side mods. A rule against radar does not have an "equal effect" against a player's ability to use radar because it has to be enforced much differently than /noaim. Although I would agree that the rules against autoaim or rules against radar are equally authoritative, it is a matter of how the rules are FORCED to be followed that makes the difference.

I think you've missed my point.  If you'll read my post again, you'll notice that it's specifically tailored to the ICW, and not in general.  A UNIVERSAL RULE AGAINST RADAR AS WELL, AS AGAINST AUTO AIM, AFFECTS EVERYBODY EQUALLY.

Quote from: Phobos on August 01, 2013, 02:35:49 AM
You say pandemic did not have the knowledge that players could change scanning/transmit range, this is untrue, they released the modding tools knowing players could change these values, and did not do anything to stop it because they didn't feel radar could be abused.

That's true and all... but, I didn't say "could change scanning/transmit range."  What I said was "would change the scanning and transmit range."  A one letter difference, but that one letter does change the meaning.  With a c, could means that people have the ability to change the values.  As I wrote it, would means that people would use this ability to change the values to make a mod where every unit can see every opponent everywhere.

Quote from: Phobos on August 01, 2013, 02:35:49 AM
They did know about radar codes and for you to say they didn't is untrue, just look at the ODF codes and you will see. It has been proven that pandemic knew radar could be expanded, even Fred himself has said this is the case. Pandemic did not feel radar could be abused or else they would have added an option for server hosts to disable it.ex-pandemic developer for SWBF1 saying it is up to the players if they want to use expanded radar, which proves they did not feel it was a cheat or unfair advantage that had to be countered. Now please tell me where in the world you came up with the idea that pandemic had no knowledge of the radar codes, as the ODF notes also prove they were fully aware of it, and they chose to release the modding tools so that players could expand upon these. I will post more fred quotes from his website directly if you still don't understand these facts.

Okay, I'll explain.  When I say radar mod, I refer to when someone has modded the .ODF files for the various units to add the scanning and transmit codes such that every unit can see every opponent, everywhere.  Clearly, we're not on the same page.  What I argued was this: that Pandemic did not know that the radar mod would be created when they released the game.
Because I've noted the presence of stock instances of radar, for you to say that I am unaware of how they put radar in the ODF shows that you either did not read my post or did not understand it.
That said, your post from Fred is interesting.  I will address it in two sections: parity and with regards to Pandemic's knowledge of radar mod.
Parity: What it says is that radar is not in and of itself unfair.  That does not mean that it is fair in every instance.  A UNIVERSAL RULE AGAINST RADAR AFFECTS EVERYBODY EQUALLY.
Pandemic's knowledge of radar mod: I think that you need more to prove that Pandemic knew that people would create the radar mod.  All this suggests is that *he* at one point knew that people could (with a c) do that and that he personally did not have any problems with it... you note he's a developer and not a spokesman.
This quote does not in and of itself refute my argument that the presence of the /noaim command and absence of a /noradar command means that Pandemic approves of the radar mod.  That the scanning and transmit lines do not appear in the various units to which it is added requires more than one quote—without context, even—to refute my devil you know vs. devil you don't.  You are definitely on the right track, and I expect to eventually be forced to concede this point. After reading your description of the context of Psych0fred's quote,  I think I will concede this point, provided that your description is what Fred meant and not SleepKiller's.

Quote from: Phobos on August 01, 2013, 02:35:49 AM
I didn't say that just because a server host can't prevent radar, that it is fair because of this reason only. It would be unfair if only certain players in the server could use radar, and not anyone who wants to install it. It would be unfair to use radar if your opponent did not have the choice to use it, but that choice is always available (unless the tournament is using specific client side mods that disallow radar, which can't be replaced with modified stock sides). Whether or not the server host can prevent its use does not change the fact it is a fair advantage because it is available to all players who choose to use it. An unfair advantage is one limited to only certain players as I said re-read my previous posts where I mentioned the wallhack analogy. Another example of unfair mod is giving empire vanguards a "heat seeking rocket" autoaim through the ODF, because players on rebel teams cannot utilize the same advantage by choice.
   
Also, what I did say is that a host cannot selectively prevent radar without the client being forced to use specific mods that don't allow it. This is not the case with autoaim mods, which are completely disabled when the server host has added /noaim

I don't see this "wallhack analogy."  I'd love to see it.  Also, if I were a real troll I'd push your use of the world "wallhack" further, as it seems to contradict your definitions in other threads.  But I'll let it slide.
I submit that fairness implies more than equal access as balance concerns need to be taken into consideration.
On the grounds of fairness: A UNIVERSAL RULE AGAINST RADAR AS WELL AS AGAINST AUTO AIM AFFECTS EVERYBODY EQUALLY.  Read those last three words, please.  People on same level playing field are fair.

Quote from: Phobos on August 01, 2013, 02:35:49 AM
You have presented zero proof of this false claim. The radar mod (scanning and transmit ranges) DID exist before modding, it existed in the stock recon and AT-AT walker ODF files BEFORE THE MODDING TOOLS WERE RELEASED. You really need to get the facts straight and read the modding documentation and ODF notes before you pretend like radar didn't exist before Fred released BFBuilder. Radar has existed ever since the day SWBF1 came out, technically even before this. It was created when pandemic developed the scanning and transmit range codes for the ODF language sometime during SWBF1 development. Your points are flawed and attempt to derail the facts I've presented which are backed by the modding documetation and developers notes.

What's a mod?  From your distinction of mods and hacks, the former is modifying code and the latter is changing memory.  I've already recognized that there are stock instances of radar.  Therefore, context dictates that radar and radar mod refer to different things.  Because mod means making modifications, it seems logical that "radar" sans "mod" refers to the stock instances of radar and "radar mod" refers to a modification allowing for every unit to be able to see every opponent, everywhere.
Further, forgive my paltry understanding of modding, you cannot mod something before the mod tools are released.   Sure, radar existed before the mod tools—but the RADAR MOD did not

Quote from: Phobos on August 01, 2013, 02:35:49 AM
Not sure what people's reasons for capping CPs has to do with it, but with radar you have a better idea of which CPs are less protected, and can save your team from losing more effectively than if you didn't have radar. Some players want to capture the CFC regardless of whether they are using radar or not, but radar will help let them know from which direction it is better to attack this command post from(RE or court entrance).

My sole troll comment and you skirted it.  Good work.
In clan battles, it's not that hard to have a general idea of where people are and where they're going without the use of the radar mod.  I won't go so far as to say that radar eliminates this strategic element.  I will say that the radar mod just changes the strategic elements, for better or for worse.  You claim it's better and I have no real opinion.

Quote from: Phobos on August 01, 2013, 02:35:49 AM
By action I mean fighting, there is more face-to-face combat if everyone in the server is using radar. There is not less fighting just because a small skirmish may end quicker, because there are overall going to be more skirmishes when players are using radar.  When all players are using radar, there is less running around, having to rely on sneaking up behind people and flanking to get kills, and the battles go faster and are more intense, because after you die the battle is quicker to resume than if you didn't have radar. Players using radar don't have to try to guess where the enemy is, you always know where they are, they always know where you are, so the battle can be sustained at greater intensity for longer time. It makes wars more enjoyable for [FC] when we fight opponenents who use radar, since the battles are more focused towards face to face combat, we enjoy these type of battles more. I would even go so far as to say the battle is more fair when everyone knows where everyone else is on the map, than when nobody knows where everyone else is.

Legitimate comment (as well as your response to it).  Again, I don't have an opinion as to say it's better or worse, just that it's different.

Quote from: Phobos on August 01, 2013, 02:35:49 AM
Just like radar mod, no brush skin mods are also fair advantages, because their use is NOT limited to only certain players. Again, an unfair advantage would be a server-sided mod that breaks the balance for certain teams or units, which clients/players cannot override through modding their own LVLs. Read my post above about autoaim rockets mod being unfair advantage and see how much different that is from radar, which can always be enabled at player's will.

All players can download no brush mod maps, and you are incorrect about the difficulty required, as both are very simple and essentially they are equally simple to mod. Radar mod requires a 2 line ODF code change and hit munge, no brush requires reskinning TGA file by just removing the foliage textures and replacing with alpha channel and hit munge. Anyone who knows how to use an image editor should have no trouble removing brush using this very simple method. The no brush mod would not be unfair if the other side chose not to use it simply because they chose not to learn how to mod.

A mod advantage is not unfair just because certain players lack the incentive to utilize these advantages. Also nobody can use the excuse that the knowledge is hidden, because there are several tutorials on this website which blatantly explain how to make these mods. A mod advantage is unfair if the server host can and does force only certain players to be able to utilize the advantage, another example of this would be the host adding autoheal to one team but not the other. So like I said, radar crosshairs and no brush mods are available to all players who choose to use them, and this fact alone makes these mods fair potential advantages.

You're right, but I was merely pointing out that accessibility is another factor to consider with regards to fairness.

Offtopic: In your signature Phobos you say 1.2 is a mod. Doesn't that change things in the Battlefront.exe which doesn't make it a mod? ;)



Let's look at this from another game made by some of the same people who made SWBFI. SWBFII!

There are a few things that people consider cheating in SWBFII. One being adding a sniper reticule to the sniper. This can be achieved through mods but the developers left it out for a reason. But all the other units have reticules. So by your theory Phobos, it's ok to add a sniper reticule?

You can make all buildings and props in SWBFII transparent through mods and in Coruscant: Jedi Temple map there is a transparent part of the map so does that mean it's ok to make every single prop/building transparent?

Are those 2 examples cheats? Or fair mods that don't give anyone an advantage?

Quote from: BlackScorpion on August 01, 2013, 12:26:36 PM
I think you've missed my point.  If you'll read my post again, you'll notice that it's specifically tailored to the ICW, and not in general.  A UNIVERSAL RULE AGAINST RADAR AS WELL, AS AGAINST AUTO AIM, AFFECTS EVERYBODY EQUALLY.

Agreed but you still have to understand they cannot be equally enforced using the same methods, no radar is harder to enforce because it cannot controlled via server host (unless using special addon mod maps like SK's).

Quote from: BlackScorpion on August 01, 2013, 12:26:36 PM
That's true and all... but, I didn't say "could change scanning/transmit range."  What I said was "would change the scanning and transmit range."  A one letter difference, but that one letter does change the meaning.  With a c, could means that people have the ability to change the values.  As I wrote it, would means that people would use this ability to change the values to make a mod where every unit can see every opponent everywhere.

Pandemic expected players to modify the values, that's why there are comments such as "would be cool if this worked for vehicles", and in the modding documents where Fred said he encourages modders to experiment and discover new ideas. So clearly they were not opposed to the idea of players/modders experimenting with radar ODF codes, since they even went so far as to include comments about it.

Quote from: BlackScorpion on August 01, 2013, 12:26:36 PM
Okay, I'll explain.  When I say radar mod, I refer to when someone has modded the .ODF files for the various units to add the scanning and transmit codes such that every unit can see every opponent, everywhere.  Clearly, we're not on the same page.  What I argued was this: that Pandemic did not know that the radar mod would be created when they released the game.
Because I've noted the presence of stock instances of radar, for you to say that I am unaware of how they put radar in the ODF shows that you either did not read my post or did not understand it.
That said, your post from Fred is interesting.  I will address it in two sections: parity and with regards to Pandemic's knowledge of radar mod.
Parity: What it says is that radar is not in and of itself unfair.  That does not mean that it is fair in every instance.  A UNIVERSAL RULE AGAINST RADAR AFFECTS EVERYBODY EQUALLY.
Pandemic's knowledge of radar mod: I think that you need more to prove that Pandemic knew that people would create the radar mod.  All this suggests is that *he* at one point knew that people could (with a c) do that and that he personally did not have any problems with it... you note he's a developer and not a spokesman.

Pandemic had already created a radar mod (albiet for recons and vehicles, not units) before releasing the modding tools, that is what I'm saying. They might not have specifically tested unit radar but there is nothing in the mod tools to suggest they would oppose this.
I don't see why I need to prove what mods pandemic knew people would or wouldn't develop, because they were only speculating what mods players would create when they released the modding tools. That's why they were released partially, to see new ideas that pandemic didn't have enough time to develop (Fred has mentioned this also various times).
So yes, fred is/was a swbf1 developer, and the closest thing to an official spokesperson we are going to get, since he is the only pandemic developer we can still reach through email.

Quote from: BlackScorpion on August 01, 2013, 12:26:36 PMI don't see this "wallhack analogy."  I'd love to see it.  Also, if I were a real troll I'd push your use of the world "wallhack" further, as it seems to contradict your definitions in other threads.  But I'll let it slide.
I submit that fairness implies more than equal access as balance concerns need to be taken into consideration.
On the grounds of fairness: A UNIVERSAL RULE AGAINST RADAR AS WELL AS AGAINST AUTO AIM AFFECTS EVERYBODY EQUALLY.  Read those last three words, please.  People on same level playing field are fair.

I am not specifically referring to wallhack as if it were a Wall Hack (a memory hack), wallhack in my definition is slang for wall glitch, as I defined in my "differences between mods and hacks" blog. The analogy I posted earlier in this thread, Buckler may have moved it though, I'll try to find the link again and edit it into this post here.
Edit heres the link
http://www.swbfgamers.com/index.php?topic=6881.msg73265#msg73265

QuoteRadar is a mod that gives a fair advantage, it is fair because every player can choose to use it or not. It would only be unfair if certain players players could not use the mod, but there is nothing a server host can do to prevent radar, thus making it FAIR. You can't just claim radar is unfair because you CHOOSE not to use it. If you were unable to choose to use radar, then you could argue it is unfair. Like glitching in a wall, once you are in the wall you can kill others without being killed, and prevent them from getting in the wall, this is an example of an unfair advantage. Radar provides a slight advantage to those who choose to utilize it, giving players more information about the battle, and is always available to any players (unless the server is using a mod map specifically designed to counter radar use)

I am glad that you consider equality to be an important factor to consider when measuring fairness. I agree that when all players are on the same playing field it is fair, but when no rules exist to oppose mods which any player can enable by choice, imo all client sided mods are fair game.

Quote from: BlackScorpion on August 01, 2013, 12:26:36 PMWhat's a mod?  From your distinction of mods and hacks, the former is modifying code and the latter is changing memory.  I've already recognized that there are stock instances of radar.  Therefore, context dictates that radar and radar mod refer to different things.  Because mod means making modifications, it seems logical that "radar" sans "mod" refers to the stock instances of radar and "radar mod" refers to a modification allowing for every unit to be able to see every opponent, everywhere.
Further, forgive my paltry understanding of modding, you cannot mod something before the mod tools are released.   Sure, radar existed before the mod tools—but the RADAR MOD did not

Mod = LVL file which has been altered/modified in a way other than the stock LVL files.
Hack = a trainer exe, or memory alteration to the battlefront.exe, any other EXE file (launchers, nick changer) hack the memory and are hacks.
Radar and radar mod would be diffrentiated, if a radar hack actually existed. To my knowledge no such hack exists, the only way to enable radar is through radar mods.

Quote from: BlackScorpion on August 01, 2013, 12:26:36 PMMy sole troll comment and you skirted it.  Good work.
In clan battles, it's not that hard to have a general idea of where people are and where they're going without the use of the radar mod.  I won't go so far as to say that radar eliminates this strategic element.  I will say that the radar mod just changes the strategic elements, for better or for worse.  You claim it's better and I have no real opinion.

I agree that radar can vastly alter strategy, for better or worse depends on many variables. I claim that the player using radar has more knowledge about which tactics can possibly be utilized than the player not using radar.

Quote from: BlackScorpion on August 01, 2013, 12:26:36 PM
You're right, but I was merely pointing out that accessibility is another factor to consider with regards to fairness.

As an example of this point, Helios has offered public accessibility to radar mod. It is just as fair to use these mods if the offer is declined as it is if accepted. Not supplying radar mods to anyone who wanted to use them could be considered unfair though, in a tournament matches.

Quote from: Kit Fisto on August 01, 2013, 12:56:41 PM
Offtopic: In your signature Phobos you say 1.2 is a mod. Doesn't that change things in the Battlefront.exe which doesn't make it a mod? ;)

Technically its an upgrade and a mod. The cis rep and imp side lvls are modified/altered differently than 1.0, as is the shell for instance (and the common too I believe). The upgrade is done to the executable and the rest is mods to the true original 1.0 LVL files. If a person says they hate all mods, technically they are saying they hate 1.2 since it is also (partially) a mod.

Quote from: Kit Fisto on August 01, 2013, 12:56:41 PMThere are a few things that people consider cheating in SWBFII. One being adding a sniper reticule to the sniper. This can be achieved through mods but the developers left it out for a reason. But all the other units have reticules. So by your theory Phobos, it's ok to add a sniper reticule?

Although I don't play BF2, I would say it is not cheating to add a crosshair reticule to the sniper, as long as any client has the option to enable it in any server they want, and the server does not specifically prohibit such mods. That is my view on it.

QuoteYou can make all buildings and props in SWBFII transparent through mods and in Coruscant: Jedi Temple map there is a transparent part of the map so does that mean it's ok to make every single prop/building transparent?

The same logic would apply, I do not believe a player who mods their world to see through walls is cheating, as long as every client has the option to do so, and the server host does not have rules against such mods. I tested see through mods on cloud city and found they actually hurt more than help.

QuoteAre those 2 examples cheats? Or fair mods that don't give anyone an advantage?

They are cheats only if the server host does not allow such mods. If unspecified or acceptable, they are not cheats just fair mods that give anyone who chooses to use them a potential advantage.

Alright. That tells me all that I need to know.

So this is a topic to talk about radar? It will later be called the topic that started WW3...

In my opinion, radar is only noobish when you play it on a server not meant for radar, and play a bunch of people without it. The mod is fine, but if you want to use it, use it on one of FC's awesome servers or any server that allows it.

For tournaments it's only wrong using it against people who don't have it.

Quote from: Josh on August 01, 2013, 03:42:53 PM
For tournaments it's only wrong using it against people who don't have it.

Well if radar is available to all players and the tourney admins allow it (for certain matches at least), it couldn't be considered wrong, since the other team has the choice to use it. But if you were to use it without the tourney admin permission or other players knowing you use radar or not having access to it, it would be wrong.

I'll give my thoughts on this topic.

Quote from: Phobos on August 01, 2013, 02:35:49 AM
By action I mean fighting, there is more face-to-face combat if everyone in the server is using radar. There is not less fighting just because a small skirmish may end quicker, because there are overall going to be more skirmishes when players are using radar.  When all players are using radar, there is less running around, having to rely on sneaking up behind people and flanking to get kills, and the battles go faster and are more intense, because after you die the battle is quicker to resume than if you didn't have radar. Players using radar don't have to try to guess where the enemy is, you always know where they are, they always know where you are, so the battle can be sustained at greater intensity for longer time. It makes wars more enjoyable for [FC] when we fight opponenents who use radar, since the battles are more focused towards face to face combat, we enjoy these type of battles more. I would even go so far as to say the battle is more fair when everyone knows where everyone else is on the map, than when nobody knows where everyone else is.

This post is the reason I use radar. For me, the fun in this game is the action and the fighting. If I'm not fighting and shooting I don't want to play. Radar makes it so that there are always fights happening. This is obviously just my opinion.

Other people find it more fun to capture CP's, "flank", or play hide and go seek. That's fine. I encourage you to play the way that gives you the most enjoyment. But I would ask that you don't attack the way I play, just because you don't think my way is fun. Why is your fun more important than my fun? I don't attack players for not using radar, so why would you attack me for using it?

Quote from: Phobos on August 01, 2013, 03:47:49 PM
Well if radar is available to all players and the tourney admins allow it (for certain matches at least), it couldn't be considered wrong, since the other team has the choice to use it. But if you were to use it without the tourney admin permission or other players knowing you use radar or not having access to it, it would be wrong.

Sorry, I forgot to mention that.  :slap:

lol

Quote from: SirPimped on August 01, 2013, 04:57:10 PM
I'll give my thoughts on this topic.

This post is the reason I use radar. For me, the fun in this game is the action and the fighting. If I'm not fighting and shooting I don't want to play. Radar makes it so that there are always fights happening. This is obviously just my opinion.

Other people find it more fun to capture CP's, "flank", or play hide and go seek. That's fine. I encourage you to play the way that gives you the most enjoyment. But I would ask that you don't attack the way I play, just because you don't think my way is fun. Why is your fun more important than my fun? I don't attack players for not using radar, so why would you attack me for using it?

I would attack you for using it because it's not the way the game is meant to be played, because it's not implemented in the original game. Ask any cheater of any other game, they will tell you that they have more fun playing with cheats. That doesn't mean it's more fun for people who play the original game.

Quote from: DEAGLE on August 09, 2013, 03:57:31 AM
I would attack you for using it because it's not the way the game is meant to be played, because it's not implemented in the original game. Ask any cheater of any other game, they will tell you that they have more fun playing with cheats. That doesn't mean it's more fun for people who play the original game.

That's what I always find interesting. The people who don't use radar are always the aggressors. They are the ones who are constantly attacking people who use radar. We don't bother you about it, but you always bring it up.

Just because playing the way the game was when it first came out is fun for you, doesn't mean it's fun for me. Are saying that you are more important than I am? Is your fun more important than mine?

EDIT: By this logic, Buckler, Sleepkiller, and the majority of people on this website are cheaters.

Quote from: SirPimped on August 09, 2013, 08:37:09 AM
That's what I always find interesting. The people who don't use radar are always the aggressors. They are the ones who are constantly attacking people who use radar. We don't bother you about it, but you always bring it up.

Just because playing the way the game was when it first came out is fun for you, doesn't mean it's fun for me. Are saying that you are more important than I am? Is your fun more important than mine?

EDIT: By this logic, Buckler, Sleepkiller, and the majority of people on this website are cheaters.

It seems a bit unfair to say it's only people who don't use radar who are aggressive, you must realise some nasty things are said by both sides.
I have nothing against people using radar in modded servers/radar allowed ones but it doesn't seem fair to choose for other people by bringing radar into a server where people don't want to play with it. They choose to play battlefront as they have always played not in way that someone else has decided is better.
Luckily we now have a choice of servers.

I know it can be argued that skin changers etc are just as bad as radar but they don't affect the game as much and there has to be a limit somewhere otherwise people would just play with radar, autoaim and autofire on and there would be very little left of the game.

[spoiler]I'm not trying to start an argument I just think it's interesting to see different points of view, when discussed maturely. :)[/spoiler]

Quote from: DEAGLE on August 09, 2013, 03:57:31 AM
I would attack you for using it because it's not the way the game is meant to be played, because it's not implemented in the original game. Ask any cheater of any other game, they will tell you that they have more fun playing with cheats. That doesn't mean it's more fun for people who play the original game.

False premise #1 assuming the game isn't meant to be played with radar - Fred says it is meant to be played with or without radar depending on player's preference
False premise #2 assuming it's not implemented into the original game - It is just check the recon and AT-AT ODFs
False premise #3 assuming that something not implemented into the original game is automatically a cheat - Mod maps would therefore be a cheat and 'not meant to be played' too under this assumption.
Attacking other players for using mods is irrational, especially when the mods are available to all players.

Quote from: {PLA}gdh92 on August 09, 2013, 08:56:36 AM
It seems a bit unfair to say it's only people who don't use radar who are aggressive, you must realise some nasty things are said by both sides.
I have nothing against people using radar in modded servers/radar allowed ones but it doesn't seem fair to choose for other people by bringing radar into a server where people don't want to play with it. They choose to play battlefront as they have always played not in way that someone else has decided is better.
Luckily we now have a choice of servers.

It is more aggressive to tell people they can't use radar, and call it a cheat, than it is to say you can use radar if you so choose. It is also ironic that there is more complaining about radar since it has been released publicly than before. It doesn't seem fair to force other players not to use mods they want just because some players prefer stock. The way they choose to play SWBF should not extend to the way other people choose to play the game.

Quote from: {PLA}gdh92 on August 09, 2013, 08:56:36 AM
I know it can be argued that skin changers etc are just as bad as radar but they don't affect the game as much and there has to be a limit somewhere otherwise people would just play with radar, autoaim and autofire on and there would be very little left of the game.

I feel sorry for anyone who believes that rubbish. Maybe one day you will understand this kind of hostility is why I never released skin changers for other maps after CC.
- Not specifically in reference to you, but I noticed that several players seem to get the most "offended" by when other players use online compatible mods. The irony is that it's not using the mods that gets them the most upset, it's sharing these mods for others to use.

Quote from: SirPimped on August 09, 2013, 08:37:09 AM
That's what I always find interesting. The people who don't use radar are always the aggressors. They are the ones who are constantly attacking people who use radar. We don't bother you about it, but you always bring it up.

Just because playing the way the game was when it first came out is fun for you, doesn't mean it's fun for me. Are saying that you are more important than I am? Is your fun more important than mine?

EDIT: By this logic, Buckler, Sleepkiller, and the majority of people on this website are cheaters.

Exactly, this is the most logical view IMO. Radar is an individual choice, like other mods. That is how Fred sees it and that is how I see it. Other players do not have the right to tell me what mods I can and can't use. Only the server host does. I also would not have the right to tell players which mods they can and can't use unless it was in my server.

GDH92, I don't want an argument either, I want an intelligent conversation. So as long as others keep it civil, so will I.

Quote from: {PLA}gdh92 on August 09, 2013, 08:56:36 AM
It seems a bit unfair to say it's only people who don't use radar who are aggressive, you must realise some nasty things are said by both sides.

You are right, both sides have said very terrible things to each other and both sides are at fault for this, because they let it get personal. This is a topic that needs to be TALKED about not ARGUED about.

Quote from: {PLA}gdh92 on August 09, 2013, 08:56:36 AM
I have nothing against people using radar in modded servers/radar allowed ones but it doesn't seem fair to choose for other people by bringing radar into a server where people don't want to play with it. They choose to play battlefront as they have always played not in way that someone else has decided is better.

I agree and your point is fair. That's why it is good to have servers known to be radar or no radar servers.

Quote from: {PLA}gdh92 on August 09, 2013, 08:56:36 AM
Luckily we now have a choice of servers.
I know it can be argued that skin changers etc are just as bad as radar but they don't affect the game as much and there has to be a limit somewhere otherwise people would just play with radar, autoaim and autofire on and there would be very little left of the game.

Just remember that even in the PLA servers, you are playing on modded servers.

Quote from: {PLA}gdh92 on August 09, 2013, 08:56:36 AM
I know it can be argued that skin changers etc are just as bad as radar but they don't affect the game as much

From my point of view skins,skins for maps and reticules can and affect the game.I can make the rebel head brighter or with another color so its easy to me snipe long range and get more headshots.I can make my mines with a color where i can see it from long range and never die for it.Same thing with maps skins.Many mods affect the game,your choice to use or not.I just dont like when pleople forget those things and attack radar users.

DEAGLE surely you understand that you are an admin for a tournament which permits radar on half the maps?

Quote from: SirPimped on August 09, 2013, 09:06:43 AM
Just remember that even in the PLA servers, you are playing on modded servers.

Just to clarify, we use FastSpawn and DeathRegions in the common wallhack areas in our main servers. Both of these I think are well liked by players.  These mods are available to all players on the server without any downloads. 

(A server like AprilFools is modded drastically, but it's not a serious server.)

If I could find a way to make server side radar available to all (or none) I would do it.  I still think there must be a way if it turns on at a specific reinforcement count--although maybe the client keeps track of the reinforcement count.

Bring this psycho fred guy in this thread. I want to hear what he has to say.