Maximum SALLY Engine Capacity?

[Epifire]

Hey guys, I've done some dabbling in the past with trying to model some maps from scratch but I'm wanting to know what the modern detail capacity for BF 1 is?

I wasn't entirely sure if the capacity could be increased be editing memory pool amounts, etc, but I wanted to know just how far I should be able to push the engine. Old rates in old documents don't seem to apply nowadays and while I know modern PCs can take a lot, the engine still has it's restrictions.

So my primary concerns are...

-Poly count, just how many polys can the engine handle and at what rendering distances should higher counts be used? What would be suitable low res/high res LOD for a classic sandbox map?

-Texture sizes. I know the engine can take a lot but I don't want to have objects disappearing because I'm boosting something too far. Again what is the appropriate size for proper low res LODs?

I want to make an imperial outpost that combines a ground assault and tank combat that would also use lots of interior modeling. The outpost will boast at least one or two large Turbo Laser turrets (the full sized tower version) if the project reaches completion. I've already started to work on it but I'm not sure how much detail the thing should retain cause as I recall 4,000 polys was a big thing for a single model...



I can always break down the high res version to a more suitable one but I like to push the polys where I can. Thanks in advance, hard numbers are what I'm looking for right now.

[«ΙΞ¢KØ»]

wow that turret looks amazing!
sounds like a cool map, looking forward to its release

[Epifire]

Well currently each section (base, cannon mount and cannons) all are getting their own separate UV sheet. Now that is a lot but it's because the thing is so big and will require that much. Things like that are why I wanna know tech specs before doing more beyond modeling and UVing.

I'll have to get all my ZE mod tools working on Windows 7 which shall prove interesting as well. 

[411Remnant]

I think the only way to find out is to try it.  Might work, might not. I know things have been pushed in the zero engine before, a good example of that is those JA model ports whose poly count is over battlefront's default one where put into battlefront. Or the mass effect mod for battlefront 2, where clearly polygon counts on models  where pushed a little.

[tirpider]

I don't have any hard numbers, but some vague guesses about some of it from my own testing (on a low-low-end rig.)

I've found that textures over 512x512 (as recommended by the docs,) are quite usable, but when combined with alpha channels and special rendertypes, things start disappearing.

Same with the poly counts. The recommended values can be exceeded (some of the JK model conversions are double or triple in poly counts,) but when combined with other performance stretching features, things start disappearing or rendering funky.

I have used high-res player models as low-res (by simply rewriting the envelope) with relatively good success.  Only the highest poly units have caused the disappearing act. (Some JK conversions and Ande's Trandoshian.) But I am not convinced it's the poly count, but rather the number and size of the textures that cause failure on those.  Some have 5 and 6 textures and have many rectangular and large (1024x1024) textures.  Combining the textures improves performance, but not completely.

I don't feel that I have done any more than re-state your question. It seems that the recommended limits can be pushed, but when combined with other pushes, it's a roll of the dice.

I like to keep things close to the recommended limits mainly to be consistent with existing stock and 3rd party models, but also to dodge buggy rendering.

If I find some hard numbers, I will certainly post them.  I don't like 'unknowns' either and wish I had an answer.

[Epifire]

Well I don't plan on increasing things really far if I don't have to. I very well can bake high resolution meshes down to low, and can combine materials into single textures to reduce the amount loaded at once. I wish there were a way to put new values into the engine such as to lighten up it's cutoff values, how much it will allow to be loaded at once, etc.

It really is too bad Lucasarts never dumped the source code on us before they went down. After shutting off the master server you think they could have gave a little so we could have made upgrades in it.

[Sereja]

Maximal tga size: 2048x2048 pix, but if it's have an alpha channel, should be much smaller.
Maximal model size: about 700kb, 10000 points, 5000 triangles, but it's cud be bigger, I guess.
The best way, to check, if your model is ok, for SWBF1, it's try to export it with MeshEx. If it crash, in beginining of munge process - your model is too big, and you have to decrease it.
Also, you should rememember, the models, usualy needs lowrez and collision, and it's takes about half size of the model itself.
Still, if you put too many huge models, in to your map, they become disappear,  turns to lowrez, or even crash the game. In this case, you need to decrease view distance in your .sky file, so, the game may load only near by of them. (this trick, not works for SWBF2 ).

[Ginev]

Hey i am making a turret just like the one on the picture.When i finish it can someone tell me how to make it rotate when someone is inside?

[Epifire]

Maximal tga size: 2048x2048 pix, but if it's have an alpha channel, should be much smaller.
Maximal model size: about 700kb, 10000 points, 5000 triangles, but it's cud be bigger, I guess.
The best way, to check, if your model is ok, for SWBF1, it's try to export it with MeshEx. If it crash, in beginining of munge process - your model is too big, and you have to decrease it.
Also, you should rememember, the models, usualy needs lowrez and collision, and it's takes about half size of the model itself.
Still, if you put too many huge models, in to your map, they become disappear,  turns to lowrez, or even crash the game. In this case, you need to decrease view distance in your .sky file, so, the game may load only near by of them. (this trick, not works for SWBF2 ).

I would assume it would be good to use a tiny 256x256 tile texture for alpha coverage. Texture memory is always higher over the ratio to poly counts in meshes. I have an idea to use three 512 textures for the turret, (turbo-lasers,cannon mount and base) and for other models they would use tile textures for general structures. My assumption would be to use as few textures as possible and limit my higher poly models to closer key models if possible.

No sense in using lots of polys if the general range is always far away. Now another question: Are high quality models the ones effected when the engine reaches it's limit? I ask this because if it is the case, I could slot in higher detail models within close quarter ares (such as interiors) and leave out the low res meshes so that they just fully disappear when you leave that area. It's sort of like using area portal tech (that the Source engine uses) where we wouldn't render objects that are not in the player's line of sight. I would love if it removed high resolution sources from farthest to closest, because then it would meet a predictable standard I could rely on.

[SleepKiller]

I think SWBF probably stops rendering models once it sees it is over it's internal poly limit. For instance with The Battle Royale you can set the AI count to 200 using the .mcf . Although once you do player models do start disappearing. At an estimate that would be a poly count of around 272666 for the player models alone. (I am accounting for lowres here.)

The map itself is mostly made up of simple lego models. But there are trees outside, I would place my money on the total count being around 300000.

At an estimate of what the poly limit is I would guess somewhere between 100000 and 200000. So if you were wanting next generation graphics you are going to fit around five character models in your map and nothing else

Sorry if this doesn't help at all, I just started thinking aloud to keyboard.


As for textures. You should probably be good to make all the textures at 1024^2, maybe even having a couple props at 2048^2. I've filled CC with 1024^2 textures before with no noticeable performance loss. From an actual FPS performance view point texture resolution won't really matter that much as the game can probably just use mipmaps if there isn't enough memory for the full resolution texture. (Of course I have never actually seen SWBF's source code so I have no idea how it handles loading textures, but I've had high resolution textures loaded up on 64MB cards before. So I am guessing it just used the mipmap that was going to fit into memory.)

[Sereja]

No sense in using lots of polys if the general range is always far away. Now another question: Are high quality models the ones effected when the engine reaches it's limit? I ask this because if it is the case, I could slot in higher detail models within close quarter ares (such as interiors) and leave out the low res meshes so that they just fully disappear when you leave that area. It's sort of like using area portal tech (that the Source engine uses) where we wouldn't render objects that are not in the player's line of sight. I would love if it removed high resolution sources from farthest to closest, because then it would meet a predictable standard I could rely on.

If I understand the idea correct, you wish to somehow connect all certain area models, in single layer, so, they may dissapear all at once, after player leave that area... Realy nice idea, but I doubt it's possible. Still, creators, in some reason, sort some models in different layers, for stock maps. Not sure how it's may works, or even if  it may somehow connected with memory slots, and sinchronization of model loads at all...

[Epifire]

If I understand the idea correct, you wish to somehow connect all certain area models, in single layer, so, they may dissapear all at once, after player leave that area... Realy nice idea, but I doubt it's possible. Still, creators, in some reason, sort some models in different layers, for stock maps. Not sure how it's may works, or even if  it may somehow connected with memory slots, and sinchronization of model loads at all...

My belief why they connect a lot of areas are mainly because it just makes mapping easier. They weren't pushing detail limits, and really I'm just trying to find a comfortable zone in which things don't look bad but they are not disappearing either. There is no way to parent model rendering to a trigger region otherwise I could pull off manual area portals.