Do you approve of radar being used in public servers?

[-=(212) Nixo=-]

@Phobos, there isnt a clear tutorial you have to be pretty good at modding to do it by finding the right tutorials that will give you snipits of information then piece it together as far as i can see???

[{PLA}gdh92]

Well it depends on your definition of skill. Is it the quantity of kills? Is it the quality of kills (headshots, air kills, etc.)? Is it being able to beat players 1 v 1? Is it being able to kill multiple enemies at once? Is it being able to survive (have less deaths)? Is it the ability to take cps? Is it the ability to hold cps?

To me a good player is someone who enjoys the game and helps others to enjoy it aswell. Kills have nothing to to do with it. Points are just a combination of reaction time, strategy and hardware (including ping) which I do have some respect for but would rather play alongside/be someone who plays mostly for fun.

I partly agree with Deagle and I have considered stopping playing (but not for long )if the best players use mods to the point where games just aren't fun anymore but then I realised that if I don't use mods that give an advantage and play in different servers to the players that do everyone can continue to play the game in a way they enjoy.

[Phobos]

You guys didn't know the difference? Haven't you read Phobos long rants about the difference? Paragraphs of his mind all layed out for everyone to see how much he wants radar to be used. They're on xfire and all over this site.

How do you expect to grow more and "raise the roof" when its basically two or three clans that play regularly, and then a bunch of people who probably get on after work to have some fun. I don't understand why you cant just use your mods on your server, and keep it off of the PLA ones.

Just  stick to "advancing that skill" with the rest of the FC. Yall can radar each other in your own area.

As far as I know, you're name isn't Led. When Led says we can't use radar in PLA servers, then we won't use radar in PLA servers. Until that happens, quit trying to authoritatively impose your standards on how you feel FC members should play in servers which you are NOT the host for. If I want to advance my skill there I am going to train there using the style of play I enjoy most. You start hosting your own servers and I won't use radar there. Fact is more SWBF players besides FC use radar, more than you think. Try letting each player play the game how they want to, and quit complaining about how its their 'mods' that ruin the game for you. Maybe its just your inability to adapt to a greater challenge? If you don't like how the rules of PLA server allow for radar (optionally), you don't have to play there.

I'm not going to explain to you in any further detail how our mods let us 'raise the roof' of skill since you are anti-modder and would only further insult our methods. Keep on hating a harmless radar mod, it isn't going anywhere.

I cannot simplify this any further:
Mods = Changes to any files within the AddOn and _LVL_PC folders (primarily LVL files)
Hacks = Changes to the executable (battlefront.EXE)
Radar = Mod

Yes they released the ability to mod, and im glad they did that, but still would be opposed to this version of radar, but love how other things have modified the game.

That is pure speculation. If they really were that worried about online radar being used they would have prevented the Soldier Classlabel from using the radar ODF property by making appropriate changes to the EXE.

I really enjoy the modded servers, and that is because everyone gets the same advantage. Could you not figure out a way to put the MM on a FC server, so that everyone on that particular server got that advantage. I would then praise the MM for changing up the game and making it more interesting, and would ask for more servers like it. I could go to dif servers depending on the game type I felt like playing, but always have the familiar swbf to fall back on. With all the great mods youve developed, I think you guys could find a way.

It is up to the client to use radar since it is a client-sided mod. The only way to force enable it for all clients in a server is for them to download a certain mod like side mod or AddOn. Since most of our server are for the public, this is not very feasible and we expect anyone who wants to use radar in FC servers to already have it or know how to create it. It's one of the easiest mods out there to make.

But on a side note I'll mention, when Alien Wars Era is complete, everyone who uses it will have radar.

@Phobos, there isnt a clear tutorial you have to be pretty good at modding to do it by finding the right tutorials that will give you snipits of information then piece it together as far as i can see???

There is a sticky thread here which briefly and simply explains the codes used for radar mod and how they are applied. It isn't titled "how to make radar" but you will know it when you see it.

I really doubt the game community is going to be affected if a few players quit because they are upset about radar. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[BlackScorpion]

Well it depends on your definition of skill. Is it the quantity of kills? Is it the quality of kills (headshots, air kills, etc.)? Is it being able to beat players 1 v 1? Is it being able to kill multiple enemies at once? Is it being able to survive (have less deaths)? Is it the ability to take cps? Is it the ability to hold cps?

Maybe it's all of them, maybe it's some of them, and maybe it's none of them. Honestly, I don't know. It's a matter of opinion I suppose. Maybe a crosshair can make me a better player so that I can do all of those things better, but maybe it can't. Should I not try and never know? I asked myself all these question before. Honestly I still haven't come up with definitive answers.

Some food for thought.  I think this is relevant.

Because a comparison to [anabolic] steroids was made.

(The comparison was made by Joseph, I believe, who noted that unlike Major League Baseball's efforts to fight the use of Performance Enhancing Drugs, testing for radar modifications would represent a unduly prohibitive burden.)

So, let's think of it this way: among other things, anabolic steroids allow people to lift heavier weights than they could otherwise.  But, what is the mechanism for this?  Do they increase your genetic potential by artificially raising your ceiling?  Or do they merely extend the period of linear gains (or, alternatively, delay the plateau)?

Anyways, with regards to radar (the mechanism of how steroids increase performance isn't important to this topic), it's clear that good players with radar tend to be good players without it.  Are they as good as they are with it as they are without it?  I suppose that would vary with the individual players, because I'm sure there are some who are and some who aren't.  I don't think there's any way to determine the effect of radar on ability without introducing significant entropy[FN1].  With that said, if there were, I'd be on the look for players who use radar to still be good, but to regress to the mean (of people who use radar but go without, if that makes sense).

Although I don't think there's an experiment to determine the effects of radar (if we can think of one, let's get on it and, as much as this thread has proven to be funny, we can end--or at least reduce--all this squabbling!), arranging a formula to determine effectiveness of a given player wouldn't seem to be prohibitively difficult (but calculating it would be slightly more difficult, due to constraints in the games mechanics).

[FN1]: One such idea would be to take a given player using the radar modification and have that player compete against a number to be determined later of other players (using radar? not using radar?) and then have that same player do the same thing (the other players would not change their radar from the previous trial) and then compare.  But where's the replication?  And all we have is data on one map, so that's not the greatest proof of all time. 

[Phobos]

Well it depends on your definition of skill. Is it the quantity of kills? Is it the quality of kills (headshots, air kills, etc.)? Is it being able to beat players 1 v 1? Is it being able to kill multiple enemies at once? Is it being able to survive (have less deaths)? Is it the ability to take cps? Is it the ability to hold cps?

Maybe it's all of them, maybe it's some of them, and maybe it's none of them. Honestly, I don't know. It's a matter of opinion I suppose. Maybe a crosshair can make me a better player so that I can do all of those things better, but maybe it can't. Should I not try and never know? I asked myself all these question before. Honestly I still haven't come up with definitive answers.

Some of these questions you might have better lucking finding answers for if you start experimenting with mods. I say this because instead of one point of reference (default game files), you would have multiple points of reference to look at these questions from. For each crosshair there is basically unlimited potential for variation, you can customize them in almost any way imaginable (the shape and design of them, maybe not other characteristics such as the colors they change to depending on what you are aiming at). Almost everyone has a different answer for what "skill" means to them, so the best way to find out if mods enhance your own skill - however you choose to define skill - is through experimentation.

[Ultimo]

Isn't this whole topic just to collect people's opinions? Then why are you continuing this arguement, which is just gonna sway opinions? Are you collecting or gathering them to your side?

[Phobos]

Isn't this whole topic just to collect people's opinions? Then why are you continuing this arguement, which is just gonna sway opinions? Are you collecting or gathering them to your side?

The original purpose of the thread was outlined in the first post. However, people have brought up other related issues and concerns since then to which there is currently an ongoing discussion. It's not about collecting, swaying, or gathering; although those things tend to happen in polarized topics such as these. It's about voting for what you believe in and explaining why you made that choice. I explain things how I see them, and others explain things how they see them. That is what threads are for.

[SirPimped]

Some food for thought.  I think this is relevant.

Because a comparison to [anabolic] steroids was made.

(The comparison was made by Joseph, I believe, who noted that unlike Major League Baseball's efforts to fight the use of Performance Enhancing Drugs, testing for radar modifications would represent a unduly prohibitive burden.)

So, let's think of it this way: among other things, anabolic steroids allow people to lift heavier weights than they could otherwise.  But, what is the mechanism for this?  Do they increase your genetic potential by artificially raising your ceiling?  Or do they merely extend the period of linear gains (or, alternatively, delay the plateau)?

I see the connection made between radar and steroids. However, steroids are banned for the potential consequences they have on one's health. Let's think of sports that have shown to have modifications to help improve the game. In football, the gloves they use now make it much easier for the ball to stick to your hand than if you play without that glove, basically making you a better receiver. Sure you have to be good enough without it, but for many people wearing the glove increases their ability to make a reception. In hockey, the sticks are no longer made of wood; they are made of composite materials that allow you to shoot the puck harder and faster than ever before. In almost all sports, specific shoes are made to allow a person run fast, jump higher, etc. Aren't these just comparable to mods? In all cases technology has advanced to change each of these sports much like mods, I suppose.

To me a good player is someone who enjoys the game and helps others to enjoy it aswell. Kills have nothing to to do with it. Points are just a combination of reaction time, strategy and hardware (including ping) which I do have some respect for but would rather play alongside/be someone who plays mostly for fun.

What if someone enjoys the game by getting kills? Everyone plays the game because they enjoy it in some way, shape or form. "To each, his own" I say. If I am good at something does that mean I cannot enjoy it?

Let me put it this way. If the level of my "skill" = level of my "enjoyment", wouldn't I always try to increase my skill to, in turn, increase my enjoyment? Just because I enjoy that part of the game the most, doesn't mean my way of enjoyment is any less than anyone else's who play this game for other reasons (People, friends, aesthetics, etc.). It's not fair to say kills have nothing to do with skill and that anyone who plays the game for kills is wrong for enjoying it for that reason. I do play this game for fun. The way I have the most fun is by doing the things in the list I talked about previous to this.

Again this is my opinion, so take it for what it is worth. Everyone has their own opinion. But hey, sometimes I just like to argue for the sake of argument (I should probably switch my major to Law).

[{PLA}gdh92]

Sorry I didn't mean that getting high scores was a bad way of playing just that it's still possible to enjoy the game when getting a bad score. I agree completly with 'to each, his own' and think as long as it doesn't affect others players should play how they choose from aiming for zero deaths to jumping off the tallest building.

To continue the sporting comparisons it depends if you view battlefront as the 100m where it's all about the runner or Formula 1 where equipment and upgrades are as important as the driver.

[«ΙΞ¢KØ»]

Well it depends on your definition of skill. Is it the quantity of kills? Is it the quality of kills (headshots, air kills, etc.)? Is it being able to beat players 1 v 1? Is it being able to kill multiple enemies at once? Is it being able to survive (have less deaths)? Is it the ability to take cps? Is it the ability to hold cps?

Maybe it's all of them, maybe it's some of them, and maybe it's none of them. Honestly, I don't know. It's a matter of opinion I suppose. Maybe a crosshair can make me a better player so that I can do all of those things better, but maybe it can't. Should I not try and never know? I asked myself all these question before. Honestly I still haven't come up with definitive answers.

someone should start a new thread on this

[Led]

I see the connection made between radar and steroids. However, steroids are banned for the potential consequences they have on one's health. Let's think of sports that have shown to have modifications to help improve the game. In football, the gloves they use now make it much easier for the ball to stick to your hand than if you play without that glove, basically making you a better receiver. Sure you have to be good enough without it, but for many people wearing the glove increases their ability to make a reception. In hockey, the sticks are no longer made of wood; they are made of composite materials that allow you to shoot the puck harder and faster than ever before. In almost all sports, specific shoes are made to allow a person run fast, jump higher, etc. Aren't these just comparable to mods? In all cases technology has advanced to change each of these sports much like mods, I suppose.

What if someone enjoys the game by getting kills? Everyone plays the game because they enjoy it in some way, shape or form. "To each, his own" I say. If I am good at something does that mean I cannot enjoy it?

Let me put it this way. If the level of my "skill" = level of my "enjoyment", wouldn't I always try to increase my skill to, in turn, increase my enjoyment? Just because I enjoy that part of the game the most, doesn't mean my way of enjoyment is any less than anyone else's who play this game for other reasons (People, friends, aesthetics, etc.). It's not fair to say kills have nothing to do with skill and that anyone who plays the game for kills is wrong for enjoying it for that reason. I do play this game for fun. The way I have the most fun is by doing the things in the list I talked about previous to this.

Again this is my opinion, so take it for what it is worth. Everyone has their own opinion. But hey, sometimes I just like to argue for the sake of argument (I should probably switch my major to Law).

A couple of issues here:  First, every hockey player knows they can get a composite stick.  Not every SWBF player knows about radar.

Second, your further enjoyment of the game by using radar could come at the expense of the enjoyment of someone else's that does not use radar, or even does not know it exists.  I can relate my own experience of "hiding" trying to sneak up on an enemy, only to be met with a shot gun blast to the face, on a few occasions.

I also know full well that making a rule does not stop anyone from doing anything on a server.  A rule against radar would be futile.  I can not prove that anyone uses it, and I can not stop it from being used.  Don't mistake a lack of being able to deal with the issue for endorsement.

[Phobos]

Second, your further enjoyment of the game by using radar could come at the expense of the enjoyment of someone else's that does not use radar, or even does not know it exists.  I can relate my own experience of "hiding" trying to sneak up on an enemy, only to be met with a shot gun blast to the face, on a few occasions.

I also know full well that making a rule does not stop anyone from doing anything on a server.  A rule against radar would be futile.  I can not prove that anyone uses it, and I can not stop it from being used.  Don't mistake a lack of being able to deal with the issue for endorsement.

Your point is valid, although I do not think players who mod the game should have to, or be expected to limit the advantages they have just because some players choose not to mod, and therefore are unaware of certain mods and/or advantages. Flanking is sometimes the only effective strategy left to use in some rounds when the opposite team is dominating (especially if it's the jet team as usual). I think though that server sided mods could make up for any imbalances far more than expecting all players to conform to a certain etiquette by refraining from use of advantageous mods.

You have mentioned that if radar could be disabled for clients,  you could then enforce the no radar policy in specific servers with some as-of-yet undiscovered server sided mod or EXE alteration. If this was the case, I would be fine with playing in those type of servers without radar, since I would know for certain nobody else could use it. The main reason I use it in PLA is because 90% of the time there is at least 1-3 other people in the server using it.

[pdenton]

o.k. first to define some terms which seem to be misused a bit
a hack is something that the program was never intended to do for example a text editor being able to edit HTML or in a game a infantryman being able to walk through walls, or even the ability for non jet type units to do a high jump/fly.
a mod (non hack) would be enabling or changing something in game that is contained in original program i.e. using a higher than 10 mouse sensitivity, turning on mini map to always show enemies, or even loading custom avatar's.
a true wall hack enables a player to see and shoot through walls however i wont touch this subject any further
a cheat is something to give someone a unfair advantage.
so radar a cheat? maybe
radar a hack? nope
far as what sleep killer said on auto aim, if you use the native auto aim then no it is not a hack( can be disabled through no aim though ) if you make a auto aim to work in game via code caves(most likely the way you are thinking of) it is now dealing with new code therefore is a hack.
my opinion on this subject is yes as long as host permits so.
a hack is a modification, though a mod is not always a hack. would be the correct statement and i apologize if i have made anyone offended

[Phobos]

o.k. first to define some terms which seem to be misused a bit
a hack is something that the program was never intended to do for example a text editor being able to edit HTML or in a game a infantryman being able to walk through walls, or even the ability for non jet type units to do a high jump/fly.
a mod (non hack) would be enabling or changing something in game that is contained in original program i.e. using a higher than 10 mouse sensitivity, turning on mini map to always show enemies, or even loading custom avatar's.
a true wall hack enables a player to see and shoot through walls however i wont touch this subject any further
a cheat is something to give someone a unfair advantage.
so radar a cheat? maybe
radar a hack? nope
far as what sleep killer said on auto aim, if you use the native auto aim then no it is not a hack( can be disabled through no aim though ) if you make a auto aim to work in game via code caves(most likely the way you are thinking of) it is now dealing with new code therefore is a hack.
my opinion on this subject is yes as long as host permits so.
a hack is a modification, though a mod is not always a hack. would be the correct statement and i apologize if i have made anyone offended

I don't see how radar can be called unfair. What is so unfair about learning how to mod and use an advantage available to anyone willing to put in even a minimal effort? Radar would be a cheat IF only certain people could use it. That is not the case though since it is an optional mod. A modification is change to LVL files, no changes to LVL files can be considered a hack. Only things which change memory of the exe code are hacks. I disagree with the statement that a hack is a modification because they are completely different methods used to alter completely different types of files.

[Helios]

There are some valid points here and some not so much, if the server host says that it is aloud there shouldn't be an arguement about it period. But it does give an unfair advantage because if you are in a server with 3-7 people killing would be easier, thus knowing where your opponent(s) are. To end the discussion it should be aloud to be used as it is here on this very forum. The only problem is, is that your are the one to locate this thread.