Do you approve of radar being used in public servers?

[Black Water]

FTW "No" 21-15   

edit: no smiley spam please

[Phobos]

What joseph said about the indifference thing is basically true, meaning that so far its a pretty even split between the people who are okay with it and those who are personally offended when other players use radar in pub servers

And the majority vote here does not suddenly turn it into "rules". The server host sets the rules, the votes here have no actual impact on how most people are going to choose to play the game. This thread was made to get a statistical idea of where people in this community stand. And the results thus far have greatly reinforced the decision I made a few months back. 

I honestly don't know the first thing about modding. I still need help from people to install new maps for events like the ICW. But here is my theory on the situation...

I have played this game for about 8 years now. Lately, I feel like my skill level is peaking. In other words, I think of it as a "ceiling" that I am approaching, but I will never actually hit or never go higher than in the confines of the game as they are. I think of it in terms of a graph in algebra with an asymptote I cannot cross. I will always approach the asymptote, but never hit or cross it. Now to raise that "ceiling" level, people have used things like mods to raise their ceiling level so they can have better skill level potential. At some point I may experiment with mods (possibly radar), because as it is now, I don't feel like I can improve at any higher of a rate than I am at the moment (which I feel is pretty low).

To conclude, this is just a game, but it is a game I really enjoy playing. I really like to improve my skill every time I play. Seeing as how I may not be able to improve any more within the normal confines of the game, I may look to outside sources for improvement such as mods. If a crosshair can make me a better player, then I may try it to improve myself. If radar can raise my ceiling level then I may try it to raise my skill level potential.

As a side note, my playing style is very aggressive. The use of radar for me would be to find where the action is. I am in favor of anything in this game that promotes fighting and more of it. I always want to be in the middle of the action, so if I can use radar to help me find where that is, then it sounds ok to me.

There may in fact be a "ceiling" or "plateau" for some people in terms of skill, but I am not willing to accept the possibility that at some point I will no longer be able to improve my skill beyond a certain limitation as long as I keep training efficiently. How exactly mods help you improve skill is relatively subjective, I prefer to view it as simply: I will gain skill at a faster rate using certain types of mods than I would if i played the game with no mods. This is also the case for server sided mods and its why FC servers are so much different than the others. If you feel you are close to reaching your peak with the game as it is setup by default, maybe mods will give you enough optimism that you can raise the roof so to speak. Some other points you bring up here I also agree with and perhaps we could have a conversation about this sometime over xfire

If it continues to be such an ordeal, why doesn't swbfgamers just release a tutorial on how to do it? I mean it would solve all the arguing (even though I still wouldn't use it), and if someone is really against it, than they won't use it.

There already is a tutorial on this forum how to make it, and it hasn't exactly 'solved' any arguing 

[DEAGLE]

don't you guys remember good old times when no one (probably just belk) was playing with those things? just let it go and play normal, it's so much more fun. I can't speak for the americans, but many of the last active euro players are leaving because of those discussions. I'll be done with bf in two or three months aswell, but I wanna tell you you're destroying a beautiful game

[Phobos]

don't you guys remember good old times when no one (probably just belk) was playing with those things? just let it go and play normal, it's so much more fun. I can't speak for the americans, but many of the last active euro players are leaving because of those discussions. I'll be done with bf in two or three months aswell, but I wanna tell you you're destroying a beautiful game

I disagree 100% completely. The art of modding which many of us here at SWBFGamers are proficient at is expanding this awesome game and helping it to not die by adding more variety and content for the players to experience. If someone is quitting just because they are bothered by another player using radar, I highly doubt that it will have as serious of an effect on the life of the game itself as you seem to believe.

Just look at the contributions of BattleBelk for example. Without those I doubt we would have even half as many mods for this game as we do now. Mods do not kill games - they expand them. Radar is not going to kill this game. An aimbot that worked online in /noaim servers however, possibly could. Your accusations that we are destroying the game really exemplifies the lack of respect you have for SWBF.

[Kit Fisto]

don't you guys remember good old times when no one (probably just belk) was playing with those things? just let it go and play normal, it's so much more fun. I can't speak for the americans, but many of the last active euro players are leaving because of those discussions. I'll be done with bf in two or three months aswell, but I wanna tell you you're destroying a beautiful game

Yes. Deagle has got it. Just remeber playing when you first got the game with no mods or maps, just playing for the fun of it. As a lot of you say you like SWBF for the online play, so just enjoy the game.
Then you have to think about why you play SWBF at all? Is it to say "oh I'm so good at this game and you all suck" or to just have fun with it. You aren't proving to anyone that you are just such a great person because you are good at SWBF. It's like those jocks on your sports team that you just want to punch in the face.

[spoiler]sorry to spew out like that.  [/spoiler]

[DEAGLE]

I disagree 100% completely. The art of modding which many of us here at SWBFGamers are proficient at is expanding this awesome game and helping it to not die by adding more variety and content for the players to experience. If someone is quitting just because they are bothered by another player using radar, I highly doubt that it will have as serious of an effect on the life of the game itself as you seem to believe.

Just look at the contributions of BattleBelk for example. Without those I doubt we would have even half as many mods for this game as we do now. Mods do not kill games - they expand them. Radar is not going to kill this game. An aimbot that worked online in /noaim servers however, possibly could. Your accusations that we are destroying the game really exemplifies the lack of respect you have for SWBF.

I don't see why it's such a big deal for you. By using radar hack you're giving yourself an advantage over your opponent. Thats what hacks do. Because of that players are leaving. Call it mod or cheat, I don't really care.
I didn't said anything against modding itself. Believe me, those server mods are amazing, but I'm talking about client hacks/mods whatever.

And to the lack of respect for swbf: I don't use mm hack. You probably do. Now think again who has not enough respect for the game.

[Phobos]

I don't see why it's such a big deal for you. By using radar hack you're giving yourself an advantage over your opponent. Thats what hacks do. Because of that players are leaving. Call it mod or cheat, I don't really care.
I didn't said anything against modding itself. Believe me, those server mods are amazing, but I'm talking about client hacks/mods whatever.

And to the lack of respect for swbf: I don't use mm hack. You probably do. Now think again who has not enough respect for the game.

Mods aren't hacks, hacks aren't mods. You're making it a big deal by claiming we 'destroy the game' by using mods that give advantages. I don't use any hacks at all for the game only mods so you are disrespecting mods by mislabeling them as hacks.

[Black Water]

Since it is a mod, it can't be a cheat? i beg to differ.

[Jamman]

You guys didn't know the difference? Haven't you read Phobos long rants about the difference? Paragraphs of his mind all layed out for everyone to see how much he wants radar to be used. They're on xfire and all over this site.

How do you expect to grow more and "raise the roof" when its basically two or three clans that play regularly, and then a bunch of people who probably get on after work to have some fun. I don't understand why you cant just use your mods on your server, and keep it off of the PLA ones.

Just  stick to "advancing that skill" with the rest of the FC. Yall can radar each other in your own area.

[Led]

If a crosshair can make me a better player, then I may try it to improve myself. If radar can raise my ceiling level then I may try it to raise my skill level potential.

But is it really making you a better player? Or are you equating being a  better player with more kills ?

[{TcF}Dr.Penguin]

Obviously you have to have a modification to hack since the game doesn't come with it.

[Joseph]

deagle, is your claim that "people are leaving the game because of radar" coming from anywhere besides your rear end?

phobos' distinction between mod and hack is very clear and very important. it allows one to think more clearly about what changes to the game are permissible for an individual to make. people who say "anything that gives you an advantage is wrong" must be against xhair and skin mods which i know aint so.

[«ΙΞ¢KØ»]

Well, i was gonna try to stay out of this, cause i dont want ppl to take what i say personally and make enemies (and probs earn me a perm ban from FC for respectfully putting forth my opinion), but.......

Phobos, you are presenting beautifully formed arguments, and I really respect them. On the other hand, while reading over this, I am afraid that I might be biased, because I just look for holes in the radar argument. Ill try not to go through and pick it all apart, but just touch on some important or very interesting ones.


Yes, there are or is no standard rules of the game, but there usually seems to be a general consensus and respect, like for awhile no self respecting player would cp mine or use anything but sniper in 1.0.

it removes the noob tactics of flanking

how can you on one play style, and then ask us to accept yours?

As i have said before, I think radar is 'over powered', since you don't see a radar like this in any other game, there is no delay, no way to counter act or balance, no strobing radar bar that gives you the location every couple of seconds, but a constant triangle even showing the direction one is looking. While it is okay to use with others, I think it is over powered to be used in public in its current form. I would be open to the idea of a scaled down version, with a possible way to balance or counter act maybe, as a compromise.

Arguing over the definition of radar is a good philosophical argument. Thats what really brought me out to post, and where i should have stayed. But I think mods like maps and name mods are cool and useful, but a mod that gives only a few a huge advantage over others, i think is what makes it a "hack" or "cheat". They are inexcusable in other games(you get kicked, banned, etc.), despite the fact that they are available to all.

Probs the main reason i still play swbf, is for the cool mods, and for the friends i have met ingame. I hope that we do not loose any friends or mods over this argument. Yes they released the ability to mod, and im glad they did that, but still would be opposed to this version of radar, but love how other things have modified the game.

We justify its use in servers where the host does not care or has not stated any rules about it being allowed or not. We will not use it in any server where the rules of the server host say it isn't allowed. And the only rules I see being official are ones set by the server host, opinions of players in the server cannot be made into rules.

this is why i still respect him and FC, cause they are trying to be respectful about this.

i had to chuckle at a couple of friends comments

Just  stick to "advancing that skill" with the rest of the FC. Yall can radar each other in your own area.

deagle, is your claim that "people are leaving the game because of radar" coming from anywhere besides your rear end?

lollololololololololololoolololl

I really enjoy the modded servers, and that is because everyone gets the same advantage. Could you not figure out a way to put the MM on a FC server, so that everyone on that particular server got that advantage. I would then praise the MM for changing up the game and making it more interesting, and would ask for more servers like it. I could go to dif servers depending on the game type I felt like playing, but always have the familiar swbf to fall back on. With all the great mods youve developed, I think you guys could find a way.


Now ill stfu and go back to just reading this forum and keeping my opinions to myself, sry for being so wordy when i finally decided to talk.

[DEAGLE]

@Joseph, as I already mentioned I don't give a single f*ck wether it's called hack or mod. I also don't care about crosshairs, skins whatever, because those advantages are minimal (I for myself play better without any changes). MM on the other side is, like ΙΞ¢KØ already said, over powered. You just don't stand a chance against a player on your skill level if he's using radar hack.
If someone would release a wallhack, would you support that aswell? Because it's working just the same as radar hack does.


And to Phobos: yes, I think that radar hack is in fact destroying the game. Probably not for you and other cheaters, but for people who still play fair and ofc future players aswell.

[SirPimped]

But is it really making you a better player? Or are you equating being a  better player with more kills ?

Well it depends on your definition of skill. Is it the quantity of kills? Is it the quality of kills (headshots, air kills, etc.)? Is it being able to beat players 1 v 1? Is it being able to kill multiple enemies at once? Is it being able to survive (have less deaths)? Is it the ability to take cps? Is it the ability to hold cps?

Maybe it's all of them, maybe it's some of them, and maybe it's none of them. Honestly, I don't know. It's a matter of opinion I suppose. Maybe a crosshair can make me a better player so that I can do all of those things better, but maybe it can't. Should I not try and never know? I asked myself all these question before. Honestly I still haven't come up with definitive answers.