Do you approve of radar being used in public servers?

[Phobos]

Oh jeez, I cannot stand the neutrality/acceptance policies.. I think if you use radar, or any other cheat, then you imply that you are unable to play by the standard rules of the game. If everyone in a specific server has the exact same cheats then the playing field is leveled once again so I think that would be fine. But its not fair if everyone else plays by the standard rules and one or two other people use some kind of cheating advantage. Nobody likes a cheater! I prefer to play fairly, win or lose.

"Standard rules of the game", I don't know what these supposedly are, but if you are implying there is some sort of standard or rule that says radar is cheating, I would like confirmation these rules exist. It's quite fair for someone to use a mod which the server has not clarified its position towards. Nobody likes it when when a person or a few people in a server (who are not host) try to set the standards for other players.

What exactly are these "standard rules" you keep referring to? I've yet to see any official documentation stating that radar is not allowed under these 'standard rules'. I've never heard of them and neither have most other players. Rules cannot be imaginatively invented by players in a server (players who are not the host) and then expected to be followed by other players who may choose to use mods to enhance their game if so wanted. It's also incorrect to definitively label radar as a 'cheat no matter what the server circumstances'. And if everyone has radar, that certainly does not mean 'everyone is cheating'. By your logic every single player in this game is a cheater, since radar is enabled for all players in a server at the end of game when one team goes under 20 reinforcements.

Unless you can show me official LucasArts or Pandemic documentation outlining these standard rules against radar which you claim exist, I'll just assume these so-called 'rules' are nothing more than 'shared opinions' of the few people who are against radar and have actually managed to convince themselves it's a cheat in every circumstance even if the server host explicitly allows or encourages its use in their servers. (In fact in FC servers we encourage players to use radar, that does not mean we encourage cheating. It means we choose to have our servers set up to allow for enhanced skill training you can't get in most other servers. Logically in a server where there is no CPs, and everyone has radar, it removes the noob tactics of flanking, a player always knows where the action is, and it promotes face-to-face combat situations which I believe enhance skill more than sneaking around and relying on getting most of your kills from shooting people in the back. Also it lets us listen to music while playing and ENJOY the game more rather than having to rely heavily on sound to know where enemies are. Like I say, different servers, different standards.)

Your post implies these 'standard rules' don't actually exist outside of your imagination if this is the case it would be more sensible to say:  "I think if you use radar, or anything else I consider a cheat, then you imply that you are unable to play by my view of how the the standard rules of the game should be. " Let me make it clear this implication would be erroneous. Virtually nobody who started playing this game started off with radar (maybe a very very few did but not likely). They are just as capable of playing with radar as they are without radar. It is more or less a choice of whether that person wants to use it or not. How should the game be for everyone? Defined by a few people who don't host servers or mod, but want everyone else to play exactly how they do? OR should each individual have the right to play and mod how they so choose, with the server host having the right to ban anyone whose mods or play style they dont approve of?

You don't like the way the game came without radar to see enemies in MP? Don't play it.

This kind of logic says that rather than modding the game to change what an individual player doesn't like, he should instead stop playing the game. How ridiculous. By that logic you are also saying quit the game before modding anything, and are giving advice you explicitly do not follow.
Its the equivalent of saying: "You don't like the way the game came with default map skins, unit skins, and crosshairs? Don't play it."
Sorry but I'd rather mod whatever it is I didn't like so that I do like it, rather than quit playing just because someone has a beef with how I choose to mod the game.

Going by the logic of [FC] it would be okay for me to go ahead and make an aimbot because anybody could download the programs needed to program such a device, but aimbots are frowned on in every single FPS I have ever played. The radar hack may not be as powerful as a aimbot but it is still a cheat and should be treated as such. I have no idea how you some of you guys can justify its use in public servers.  I'm not looking to pick a fight here, please don't think I am.

I have stated previously that aimbots are hacks, and that FC does not have the same view towards hacks as we do mods. I will repeat myself again and say that any mod which works online for clients (not server sided mods) are acceptable in FC, but this is not the view we have towards hacks. You can keep ignoring the fact that FC does acknowledge the difference and has no tolerance for aimbots if you'd like, but just so everyone else knows, the views of FC towards radar MOD (not hack, there isn't such a thing), are the complete OPPOSITE of our views towards any Aim hacks which exist in actuality or in theory.

We justify its use in servers where the host does not care or has not stated any rules about it being allowed or not. We will not use it in any server where the rules of the server host say it isn't allowed. And the only rules I see being official are ones set by the server host, opinions of players in the server cannot be made into rules.

People who mod their game skins, crosshairs, and other things think its okay and not cheating. But then turn around and say that anyone who mods their sides for radar is suddenly cheating? Its a contradicting, confusing mentality I could never buy into even if I wanted to.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one Snake and SleepKiller.

[SleepKiller]

I have stated previously that aimbots are hacks, and that FC does not have the same view towards hacks as we do mods. I will repeat myself again and say that any mod which works online for clients (not server sided mods) are acceptable in FC, but this is not the view we have towards hacks. You can keep ignoring the fact that FC does acknowledge the difference and has no tolerance for aimbots if you'd like, but just so everyone else knows, the views of FC towards radar MOD (not hack, there isn't such a thing), are the complete OPPOSITE of our views towards any Aim hacks which exist in actuality or in theory.

Hacks can be mods and mods can be hacks. Simple as that.

People who mod their game skins, crosshairs, and other things think its okay and not cheating. But then turn around and say that anyone who mods their sides for radar is suddenly cheating? Its a contradicting, confusing mentality I could never buy into even if I wanted to.

So much is wrong with this let's start with player skins, modding those isn't about to give somebody an advantage. Map skins can be used to gain an advantage with the right one, I have always tried to avoid making anyone that could give somebody an advantage.

[Phobos]

Hacks can be mods and mods can be hacks. Simple as that.
So much is wrong with this let's start with player skins, modding those isn't about to give somebody an advantage. Map skins can be used to gain an advantage with the right one, I have always tried to avoid making anyone that could give somebody an advantage.

Ok please demonstrate or explain how to make a "twilight cloud city skin hack", a "modified crosshair hack", a "disable cps hack", a "remove death regions hack", and how about a "move building models around on the world hack".

By claiming any mod can be made into a hack, you are saying ANY changes a person makes to MSH, ODF, LUA files, can be replicated by hacking the games internal memory. I really can't believe this is possible but if you want to go ahead. If you can explain how this is done then I might. However I draw very large distinctions between mods and hacks in this game.

Modding player skins is going to give an advantage in certain scenarios. The word advantage itself is relative to the exact situation of any current game. Empire is white on hoth, hoth snow is white, its meant to blend in and make them more camoflouged, just like rebel skins on Endor. But a player can easily mod the player or map skins to replace the camouflage quality with contrasting colors that stand out more, giving them a much bigger advantage than players who use stock skins in those scenarios. A player can also hex edit the unit model, and make the TGA transparent, giving them a wireframe or see through advantage. So you see, in some cases modding skins can be even more advantageous than having radar. That's why I say, neither one is a cheat in my view, and being opposed to one but not the other is a contradicting mindset.

And just saying, if Pandemic/LucasArts really was as opposed to the idea of players modding radar as some people seem to think, they never would have released the side assets with bfbuilder.

[SleepKiller]

I meant a mod is capable of being a hack just as a hack is capable of being a mod.

[Phobos]

I meant a mod is capable of being a hack just as a hack is capable of being a mod.

Some are yes, but many are not. How can a mod which moves buildings around on a certain map (via zeroeditor changes), be replicated as a hack? How can you disable death regions by hacking the game instead of using hex edit mods? It may be possible, but if nobody knows where to even begin then practically speaking it has yet to be proven.

[Led]

So much is wrong with this let's start with player skins, modding those isn't about to give somebody an advantage.

I would tend to disagree with this statement, SK, at least in certain circumstances.  You could make mines more easy to see in Jabba's Palace, or give your enemy a bright orange skin to make them easier to see.  In those cases, I think some advantage would be gained.  It is he magnitude of that advantage that is debateable.

As a public stock map server host, I can not control such things.  And, some players will always have some advantage, such as low ping, that may overwhelm other custom client mod advantages.

Our work to examine the radar situation may eventually lead me to take a firm stance on radar in PLA servers, but for now there is nothing I can do about it, so I can not get to worked up about it.  (Although it is annoying to get pegged with a shot gun when I peek out behind walls... )

My thoughts on tournament servers (that I play in) are different however, in that this issue should be specifically addressed by the use of a mod map that allows everyone to have it or no one to have it.

[SleepKiller]

Player skins as in clones, droids and rebels those lot of people. Modding the skin of mines can definitely give somebody an advantage.

[Jamman]

Flanking isn't dumb at all. Countless times, there will be Empire Jets that head over to the droid cafe on the rebel side once the game starts, and start shooting people in the hall Cp, eventually to go and take it. That's flanking. I am sure that at one time or another, everyone has done that. But then there is that one person on a server who has eyes glued to their map in the bottom corner watching the enemy at 400 tickets. That has got to be the lamest thing. I hate it in Public and Private servers, but when someone brings their radar bullcrap to the PLA server with 32 slots, thats just ruining the game for those without it. In case you didnt know it, thats the last place a guy can go to enjoy SWBF1 without a crapload of server mods. If you need an advantage such as radar, why don't you stick to your own servers...maybe the Ai standing behind a building wont freak out when you go and shoot the back of their head.

[Phobos]

Flanking isn't dumb at all. Countless times, there will be Empire Jets that head over to the droid cafe on the rebel side once the game starts, and start shooting people in the hall Cp, eventually to go and take it. That's flanking. I am sure that at one time or another, everyone has done that. But then there is that one person on a server who has eyes glued to their map in the bottom corner watching the enemy at 400 tickets. That has got to be the lamest thing. I hate it in Public and Private servers, but when someone brings their radar bullcrap to the PLA server with 32 slots, thats just ruining the game for those without it. In case you didnt know it, thats the last place a guy can go to enjoy SWBF1 without a crapload of server mods. If you need an advantage such as radar, why don't you stick to your own servers...maybe the Ai standing behind a building wont freak out when you go and shoot the back of their head.

I'm glad most people in the PLA server don't care THAT much about what mods other players use lol like i say if your game is nothing but flanking then maybe its ruined otherwise not really since face to face fighting will truly show who has more skill regardless

[-=(212) Nixo=-]

MAybe, but then (say in cc hallway) you just go into cover for a reload and jump out the window to try to flank them you dont stand a chance against mm so it turns out that you are being flanked instead... I think radar doesnt have as much affect in public server as you wouldnt target someone on the other side of the map anyway when you have shots coming at you from another direction. I think it has more of an affect in 1vs1 or small battles

[DEAGLE]

voted no because it's simply a hack and it gives you huge advantage (not like crosshairs) over your opponents. working like a wallhack pretty much... in games like counter strike you would've to pay for those kind of "mods", as some of you call it, if you don't want to get banned

[Jamman]

Can someone make him an award? If this was dayz, i would give my last can of beans to deagle.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Phobos]

voted no because it's simply a hack and it gives you huge advantage (not like crosshairs) over your opponents. working like a wallhack pretty much...

not at all. its a MODification to side lvls as crosshairs are modification to common lvl

[Demihn Inferat Anssi Kelail]

 

I don't think my opinion really matters here, seeing as most of you don't know me, however i'd like to get my 2 cents in =). I'm completely neutral when it comes to using radar, but I think there's a time and a place where it should and shouldn't be used. If it's your own server and you allow it, than great. If it's a public server that's full than I think it un-levels the playing field. Seeing as the majority of people don't know how to use it, it's unfair *IN MY OPINION* for others. If too many people are complaining about it, than you shouldn't be doing it in other public servers anyways. Seeing the votes here 50% say it's unfair and way less than half say it is, majority rules >.>. And as for changing reticules, they can only help so much... I mean you could have the worlds worst player and he could be using the best reticules and would still suck. Same with making skins that give an advantage, they only go so far. But with radar, the problem is you always know where everyone is, despite of what skin or reticule, and that basically takes the challenge of MP away, you always know where there going to be before they can even see you.. and sure you say it helps going head to head, but some might use radar and still flank others, which than it becomes even more of an annoyance. As for saying it's a hack, I don't agree at all with that. Wallhacks are where you can shoot through the wall as well, and i've never heard or seen of a hack for this game. Also, I don't get why pro players would want to use it, if they already have spot on aim.. than it basically becomes AA so to speak. If it continues to be such an ordeal, why doesn't swbfgamers just release a tutorial on how to do it? I mean it would solve all the arguing (even though I still wouldn't use it), and if someone is really against it, than they won't use it. Don't get me wrong some players complain about it for the soul purpose that they don't know how to do it, aha. So theres my 2 cents, and once again this is just my opinion.. i'm 50/50 on using radar >.<.

[SirPimped]

I honestly don’t know the first thing about modding. I still need help from people to install new maps for events like the ICW. But here is my theory on the situation…

I have played this game for about 8 years now. Lately, I feel like my skill level is peaking. In other words, I think of it as a “ceiling” that I am approaching, but I will never actually hit or never go higher than in the confines of the game as they are. I think of it in terms of a graph in algebra with an asymptote I cannot cross. I will always approach the asymptote, but never hit or cross it. Now to raise that “ceiling” level, people have used things like mods to raise their ceiling level so they can have better skill level potential. At some point I may experiment with mods (possibly radar), because as it is now, I don’t feel like I can improve at any higher of a rate than I am at the moment (which I feel is pretty low).

To conclude, this is just a game, but it is a game I really enjoy playing. I really like to improve my skill every time I play. Seeing as how I may not be able to improve any more within the normal confines of the game, I may look to outside sources for improvement such as mods. If a crosshair can make me a better player, then I may try it to improve myself. If radar can raise my ceiling level then I may try it to raise my skill level potential.

As a side note, my playing style is very aggressive. The use of radar for me would be to find where the action is. I am in favor of anything in this game that promotes fighting and more of it. I always want to be in the middle of the action, so if I can use radar to help me find where that is, then it sounds ok to me.