Generic Radar Dicussions 2.0

[Phobos]

because UAV is originally in it but the radar hack in swbf wasn't in vanilla game and should of never been an option. Radars not supposed be in swbf because it ruins the online that's the reason why its so hard to organize a tournament like this.

The radar mod is vanilla (see the recon and AT-AT) and it should be an option and that's why pandemic made it one. It does not "ruin online", players like you who complain about it do. It's supposed to be there and that's why it is there. It's not hard to organize the ICW because of this, the admins could have decided the rule beforehand instead of making a pointless poll, defining whether or not its allowed. There's no hack involved, get in the AT-AT on Hoth with your vanilla files and see that there is a stock radar range of 60.

Led, feel free to delete this post if you feel it should be--if that's the case and Phobos doesn't see it, could you forward it to him?  I'm blocked.

You're perm-blocked for a reason (trolling), and I ask Led please not to forward me any messages sent from you.

I'll preface this with my opinion on radar: it's not my cup of tea.  That said, I don't think that the use of radar significantly changes ability and as long as people are honest about whether or not they use radar, it's not worth the arguments that it raises.

Also, very few—if any—of my comments in this private message will make sense when out of context.

It seems as if your attempt to distinguish sniper auto aim mod from minimap mod—with respect to the ICW—on the grounds that the former is a host-side mod while the latter is a client-side mod is inappropriate (but it's inapposite only in specific cases, such as the ICW).  If there's a general rule against using auto aim, it'll involve the /noaim command.  The /noaim commands curtails auto aim for all players, affecting all player's ability to use auto aim equally.  If there's a general rule against radar, it—just like the /noaim command—will affect all player's ability to use radar equally.

/noaim was added to 1.2 so hosts could disable autoaim in their servers. It is not 'inappropriate' to distinguish a server sided mod from a client sided mod. A rule that can be enforced server side without using mods, is different from a rule that can only be enforced using client side mods. A rule against radar does not have an "equal effect" against a player's ability to use radar because it has to be enforced much differently than /noaim. Although I would agree that the rules against autoaim or rules against radar are equally authoritative, it is a matter of how the rules are FORCED to be followed that makes the difference.

Additionally, I see a distinction in your notion that the presence of the /noaim and the absence of a  /noradar command means that Pandemic  "did not feel radar could be abused."  When Pandemic released the game, they did so without the knowledge that people would change the scanning and transmit range whereas they released the game knowing that people might possibly want to use a controller while playing SWBF.  Just because they dealt with the devil they knew of does not mean that they approve of the devil they didn't know.  (Because you're probably thinking that I have some sort of vendetta against FC, I will state that this distinction falls apart if it can be proven that Pandemic knew that people would expand radar—see my comments to your next post.)

You say pandemic did not have the knowledge that players could change scanning/transmit range, this is untrue, they released the modding tools knowing players could change these values, and did not do anything to stop it because they didn't feel radar could be abused.

They did know about radar codes and for you to say they didn't is untrue, just look at the ODF codes and you will see. It has been proven that pandemic knew radar could be expanded, even Fred himself has said this is the case. Pandemic did not feel radar could be abused or else they would have added an option for server hosts to disable it.

"I think if users want to play a map where the radar is set really high is up to them.  I don't mind it"

ex-pandemic developer for SWBF1 saying it is up to the players if they want to use expanded radar, which proves they did not feel it was a cheat or unfair advantage that had to be countered. Now please tell me where in the world you came up with the idea that pandemic had no knowledge of the radar codes, as the ODF notes also prove they were fully aware of it, and they chose to release the modding tools so that players could expand upon these. I will post more fred quotes from his website directly if you still don't understand these facts.

With respect to your last sentence, you are ABSOLUTELY right that that the presence of certain instances of radar in the stock version shows that Pandemic intentionally implemented radar support.  However, there's a pretty large jump from Pandemic intentionally allowing radar in limited conditions to allowing radar in every condition.  That said, I commend you for not explicitly making this jump. 

You note that "there is nothing a server host can do to prevent radar, thus making it FAIR," which seems to imply that if there were something that a server host could do to prevent radar, then radar would be unfair.  Do  you mean that if a server host could selectively prevent radar, then radar would be unfair?  If you did, I agree with that.   But nowhere do you say anything about a host selectively preventing radar, just that radar in general is prevented which would mean that everybody is playing without radar (or, with radar if there was a way to force radar).

I didn't say that just because a server host can't prevent radar, that it is fair because of this reason only. It would be unfair if only certain players in the server could use radar, and not anyone who wants to install it. It would be unfair to use radar if your opponent did not have the choice to use it, but that choice is always available (unless the tournament is using specific client side mods that disallow radar, which can't be replaced with modified stock sides). Whether or not the server host can prevent its use does not change the fact it is a fair advantage because it is available to all players who choose to use it. An unfair advantage is one limited to only certain players as I said re-read my previous posts where I mentioned the wallhack analogy. Another example of unfair mod is giving empire vanguards a "heat seeking rocket" autoaim through the ODF, because players on rebel teams cannot utilize the same advantage by choice.
   
Also, what I did say is that a host cannot selectively prevent radar without the client being forced to use specific mods that don't allow it. This is not the case with autoaim mods, which are completely disabled when the server host has added /noaim

Finally, the radar mod did NOT exist before modding—but this is an issue I've addressed earlier.

You have presented zero proof of this false claim. The radar mod (scanning and transmit ranges) DID exist before modding, it existed in the stock recon and AT-AT walker ODF files BEFORE THE MODDING TOOLS WERE RELEASED. You really need to get the facts straight and read the modding documentation and ODF notes before you pretend like radar didn't exist before Fred released BFBuilder. Radar has existed ever since the day SWBF1 came out, technically even before this. It was created when pandemic developed the scanning and transmit range codes for the ODF language sometime during SWBF1 development. Your points are flawed and attempt to derail the facts I've presented which are backed by the modding documetation and developers notes.

I'm just curious, what factors other than map layout—in that nobody wants to capture the CFC, regardless of whether or not they have radar—make a CP desirable to capture?

Also, I'm curious of your definition of "action."  It seems to me that, all other things being equal, knowing one's opponent's location could allow you to dispatch them quicker.  The engagements would be faster, sure, but there would be less fighting, which seems to indicate less action.

Not sure what people's reasons for capping CPs has to do with it, but with radar you have a better idea of which CPs are less protected, and can save your team from losing more effectively than if you didn't have radar. Some players want to capture the CFC regardless of whether they are using radar or not, but radar will help let them know from which direction it is better to attack this command post from(RE or court entrance).

By action I mean fighting, there is more face-to-face combat if everyone in the server is using radar. There is not less fighting just because a small skirmish may end quicker, because there are overall going to be more skirmishes when players are using radar.  When all players are using radar, there is less running around, having to rely on sneaking up behind people and flanking to get kills, and the battles go faster and are more intense, because after you die the battle is quicker to resume than if you didn't have radar. Players using radar don't have to try to guess where the enemy is, you always know where they are, they always know where you are, so the battle can be sustained at greater intensity for longer time. It makes wars more enjoyable for [FC] when we fight opponenents who use radar, since the battles are more focused towards face to face combat, we enjoy these type of battles more. I would even go so far as to say the battle is more fair when everyone knows where everyone else is on the map, than when nobody knows where everyone else is.

(Emphasis added.)

Where do you describe "skins and no brush mod maps" as being, presumably in general, a fair advantage?  The abilities required to make a no brush mod map greatly exceed those required to make the radar mod, meaning that unless a no brush mod map is shared, it's an unfair advantage because it's not really readily accessible.

Just like radar mod, no brush skin mods are also fair advantages, because their use is NOT limited to only certain players. Again, an unfair advantage would be a server-sided mod that breaks the balance for certain teams or units, which clients/players cannot override through modding their own LVLs. Read my post above about autoaim rockets mod being unfair advantage and see how much different that is from radar, which can always be enabled at player's will.

All players can download no brush mod maps, and you are incorrect about the difficulty required, as both are very simple and essentially they are equally simple to mod. Radar mod requires a 2 line ODF code change and hit munge, no brush requires reskinning TGA file by just removing the foliage textures and replacing with alpha channel and hit munge. Anyone who knows how to use an image editor should have no trouble removing brush using this very simple method. The no brush mod would not be unfair if the other side chose not to use it simply because they chose not to learn how to mod.

A mod advantage is not unfair just because certain players lack the incentive to utilize these advantages. Also nobody can use the excuse that the knowledge is hidden, because there are several tutorials on this website which blatantly explain how to make these mods. A mod advantage is unfair if the server host can and does force only certain players to be able to utilize the advantage, another example of this would be the host adding autoheal to one team but not the other. So like I said, radar crosshairs and no brush mods are available to all players who choose to use them, and this fact alone makes these mods fair potential advantages.

[SleepKiller]

I guess there goes the rule about not talking about radar...

Firstly let's talk about when radar became an issue. When was it? Not long after the Gamespy shutdown. The reason I do believe behind this is the player base suddenly took a massive hit, most of the people who would say no to something like the radar mod were lost. Thus the player base that knew about radar and supported it suddenly weren't the minority. I am basing this off two things. The fact it started becoming an issue after the Gamespy shutdown and Led once asked an almost full server if one of your controversial mods should be publicly distributed. Not a single person said yes.

So then suddenly after the shutdown the minority held a much larger part of the community when the player base took a hit. This has led to where we are now fractured over it.

But I think the real question is. Radar, is it a cheat? Well this isn't a simple question to answer. So we'll start with how adding to a class is adding a design element.

When you add those two simple definitions to an .odf there is a lot more you are changing than just letting yourself see the mini-map. You are adding a new gameplay element to SWBF. You can now see where everyone is. Now here is the catch if you are making a custom side mod that isn't intended to replace the stock sides then everyone else is going to have it as well and you designed it so that would. (And presumably added other gameplay mechanics based around that.) So in that regard no it isn't a cheat.

But when you just add the lines to the stock sides and then go online with them it is. Why? Because Pandemic didn't design the game with radar being always on in mind, they designed it with the fact that it would be off in mind. This allows for players to flank and snipers to hide. Just like a real battle. So going online with radar enabled is cheating because the game wasn't designed to have it always on. It was designed so snipers could use recon droids to help out their teams by deploying them. (Don't believe me on this Phobos? Ask psych0fred.)

But radar is enabled when the enemy reinforcements get low. So Pandmeic did design the game to have radar. Yes they sure did, they enable it so the end of the game isn't dragged out by some player hiding.


Now you are probably going to chuck everything I have said out the window if you use radar. Which I can not stop you from doing. But just stop and think for a minute. Are you doing that because you think you are right? Or are you doing it because you don't want to admit you are wrong? Think carefully on that, don't just punch out a reply on the keyboard.

[Phobos]

The fact it started becoming an issue after the Gamespy shutdown and Led once asked an almost full server if one of your controversial mods should be publicly distributed. Not a single person said yes.

If you would have asked this question in the FC server everyone would have said yes.  I offered to distribute it publicly so as to invalidate the complaints of it being unfair due to not being available to all players. Players still complained about radar before gamespy shut down, but not as much as they have since. The top players throughout swbf1 history have all been in support of radar (habi, sirpimped, alpha, etc.) These are people who for the most part have played swbf1 longer than all the whiners calling it a cheat.

But when you just add the lines to the stock sides and then go online with them it is.

It's not a cheat to add these lines to the stock sides and play them online, unless the server has specifically said this is the case. In a server where there are no rules about radar , it can't be considered a cheat.

DP asked  psych0fred and he said he does not believe radar to be a cheat, read my post above.

Now you are probably going to chuck everything I have said out the window if you use radar. Which I can not stop you from doing. But just stop and think for a minute. Are you doing that because you think you are right? Or are you doing it because you don't want to admit you are wrong? Think carefully on that, don't just punch out a reply on the keyboard.

You have not disproven the various points I posted which prove radar is a fair advantage. Therefore I have essentially defended the truth, which is backed by modding documentation and fred himself. It is not wrong for me to use mods or defend the use of mods which are fair advantages that any player can utilize if they so choose. I know what I've said is right.

[SleepKiller]

I did ask psych0fred and he said he does not believe radar to be a cheat, read my post above.

Show me the exact message you sent him and his exact reply then.

[Phobos]

Show me the exact message you sent him and his exact reply then.

Oops, correction, DP emailed him not me. I'm sure he can post the entire email here, I posted his response.

Now if psych0fred himself had directly said that radar is not suppose to be used online and is a cheat/unfair, I would change my views. But as a matter of fact this is what he said:

"I think if users want to play a map where the radar is set really high is up to them.  I don't mind it because it's just as easy to use the disguise to counter it if people really want to counter/balance the gameplay."

Like he says, it is up to the players. Or in this case, the tournament admins / server hosts. I have not tested using the disguise kit to counter radar though, so I'm not sure how that works. If Fred doesn't mind other ppl using radar, then I certainly have no problem with it.

What fred thinks on this topic if irrelevant, and will be until he starts playing MP.

So a swbf1 developer's opinion is irrelevant unless he actively plays online? I think his opinion on the topic is quite important either way. Buckler would you still be saying Fred's opinion about radar is 'irrelevant' if Fred had instead claimed it was a cheat?

[SleepKiller]

Oops, correction, DP emailed him not me. I'm sure he can post the entire email here, I posted his response.

Now if psych0fred himself had directly said that radar is not suppose to be used online and is a cheat/unfair, I would change my views. But as a matter of fact this is what he said:
Like he says, it is up to the players. Or in this case, the tournament admins / server hosts. I have not tested using the disguise kit to counter radar though, so I'm not sure how that works. If Fred doesn't mind other ppl using radar, then I certainly have no problem with it.

I'm pretty certain he is talking about mod maps. Ask him these exact words.

If I edit the stock sides so that radar scanning and transmitting range was so high it covered the entire map. And then went to play an online game with those sides. Would I be cheating  by doing so?

If he replies back with no, then I'll stand down. Doesn't mean I'll agree with it or think it is right. But you won't here anymore from me on the subject. (Only if you ask him those exact words though.)

[Phobos]

I'll do that.

Edit: I sent him the email. In my opinion, actual swbf1 developer would have the most say of all.

[BlackScorpion]

I personally don't care who is and who isn't using radar.  I think that there are some instances where its use can be fair and some where its use can be unfair.  Remember that when accusing me of "trying to ruin the SWBF community by crying about radar." 

/noaim was added to 1.2 so hosts could disable autoaim in their servers. It is not 'inappropriate' to distinguish a server sided mod from a client sided mod. A rule that can be enforced server side without using mods, is different from a rule that can only be enforced using client side mods. A rule against radar does not have an "equal effect" against a player's ability to use radar because it has to be enforced much differently than /noaim. Although I would agree that the rules against autoaim or rules against radar are equally authoritative, it is a matter of how the rules are FORCED to be followed that makes the difference.

I think you've missed my point.  If you'll read my post again, you'll notice that it's specifically tailored to the ICW, and not in general.  A UNIVERSAL RULE AGAINST RADAR AS WELL, AS AGAINST AUTO AIM, AFFECTS EVERYBODY EQUALLY.

You say pandemic did not have the knowledge that players could change scanning/transmit range, this is untrue, they released the modding tools knowing players could change these values, and did not do anything to stop it because they didn't feel radar could be abused.

That's true and all... but, I didn't say "could change scanning/transmit range."  What I said was "would change the scanning and transmit range."  A one letter difference, but that one letter does change the meaning.  With a c, could means that people have the ability to change the values.  As I wrote it, would means that people would use this ability to change the values to make a mod where every unit can see every opponent everywhere.

They did know about radar codes and for you to say they didn't is untrue, just look at the ODF codes and you will see. It has been proven that pandemic knew radar could be expanded, even Fred himself has said this is the case. Pandemic did not feel radar could be abused or else they would have added an option for server hosts to disable it.ex-pandemic developer for SWBF1 saying it is up to the players if they want to use expanded radar, which proves they did not feel it was a cheat or unfair advantage that had to be countered. Now please tell me where in the world you came up with the idea that pandemic had no knowledge of the radar codes, as the ODF notes also prove they were fully aware of it, and they chose to release the modding tools so that players could expand upon these. I will post more fred quotes from his website directly if you still don't understand these facts.

Okay, I'll explain.  When I say radar mod, I refer to when someone has modded the .ODF files for the various units to add the scanning and transmit codes such that every unit can see every opponent, everywhere.  Clearly, we're not on the same page.  What I argued was this: that Pandemic did not know that the radar mod would be created when they released the game.
Because I've noted the presence of stock instances of radar, for you to say that I am unaware of how they put radar in the ODF shows that you either did not read my post or did not understand it.
That said, your post from Fred is interesting.  I will address it in two sections: parity and with regards to Pandemic's knowledge of radar mod.
Parity: What it says is that radar is not in and of itself unfair.  That does not mean that it is fair in every instance.  A UNIVERSAL RULE AGAINST RADAR AFFECTS EVERYBODY EQUALLY.
Pandemic's knowledge of radar mod: I think that you need more to prove that Pandemic knew that people would create the radar mod.  All this suggests is that *he* at one point knew that people could (with a c) do that and that he personally did not have any problems with it... you note he's a developer and not a spokesman.
This quote does not in and of itself refute my argument that the presence of the /noaim command and absence of a /noradar command means that Pandemic approves of the radar mod.  That the scanning and transmit lines do not appear in the various units to which it is added requires more than one quote—without context, even—to refute my devil you know vs. devil you don't.  You are definitely on the right track, and I expect to eventually be forced to concede this point. After reading your description of the context of Psych0fred's quote,  I think I will concede this point, provided that your description is what Fred meant and not SleepKiller's.

I didn't say that just because a server host can't prevent radar, that it is fair because of this reason only. It would be unfair if only certain players in the server could use radar, and not anyone who wants to install it. It would be unfair to use radar if your opponent did not have the choice to use it, but that choice is always available (unless the tournament is using specific client side mods that disallow radar, which can't be replaced with modified stock sides). Whether or not the server host can prevent its use does not change the fact it is a fair advantage because it is available to all players who choose to use it. An unfair advantage is one limited to only certain players as I said re-read my previous posts where I mentioned the wallhack analogy. Another example of unfair mod is giving empire vanguards a "heat seeking rocket" autoaim through the ODF, because players on rebel teams cannot utilize the same advantage by choice.
   
Also, what I did say is that a host cannot selectively prevent radar without the client being forced to use specific mods that don't allow it. This is not the case with autoaim mods, which are completely disabled when the server host has added /noaim

I don't see this "wallhack analogy."  I'd love to see it.  Also, if I were a real troll I'd push your use of the world "wallhack" further, as it seems to contradict your definitions in other threads.  But I'll let it slide.
I submit that fairness implies more than equal access as balance concerns need to be taken into consideration.
On the grounds of fairness: A UNIVERSAL RULE AGAINST RADAR AS WELL AS AGAINST AUTO AIM AFFECTS EVERYBODY EQUALLY.  Read those last three words, please.  People on same level playing field are fair.

You have presented zero proof of this false claim. The radar mod (scanning and transmit ranges) DID exist before modding, it existed in the stock recon and AT-AT walker ODF files BEFORE THE MODDING TOOLS WERE RELEASED. You really need to get the facts straight and read the modding documentation and ODF notes before you pretend like radar didn't exist before Fred released BFBuilder. Radar has existed ever since the day SWBF1 came out, technically even before this. It was created when pandemic developed the scanning and transmit range codes for the ODF language sometime during SWBF1 development. Your points are flawed and attempt to derail the facts I've presented which are backed by the modding documetation and developers notes.

What's a mod?  From your distinction of mods and hacks, the former is modifying code and the latter is changing memory.  I've already recognized that there are stock instances of radar.  Therefore, context dictates that radar and radar mod refer to different things.  Because mod means making modifications, it seems logical that "radar" sans "mod" refers to the stock instances of radar and "radar mod" refers to a modification allowing for every unit to be able to see every opponent, everywhere.
Further, forgive my paltry understanding of modding, you cannot mod something before the mod tools are released.   Sure, radar existed before the mod tools—but the RADAR MOD did not

Not sure what people's reasons for capping CPs has to do with it, but with radar you have a better idea of which CPs are less protected, and can save your team from losing more effectively than if you didn't have radar. Some players want to capture the CFC regardless of whether they are using radar or not, but radar will help let them know from which direction it is better to attack this command post from(RE or court entrance).

My sole troll comment and you skirted it.  Good work.
In clan battles, it's not that hard to have a general idea of where people are and where they're going without the use of the radar mod.  I won't go so far as to say that radar eliminates this strategic element.  I will say that the radar mod just changes the strategic elements, for better or for worse.  You claim it's better and I have no real opinion.

By action I mean fighting, there is more face-to-face combat if everyone in the server is using radar. There is not less fighting just because a small skirmish may end quicker, because there are overall going to be more skirmishes when players are using radar.  When all players are using radar, there is less running around, having to rely on sneaking up behind people and flanking to get kills, and the battles go faster and are more intense, because after you die the battle is quicker to resume than if you didn't have radar. Players using radar don't have to try to guess where the enemy is, you always know where they are, they always know where you are, so the battle can be sustained at greater intensity for longer time. It makes wars more enjoyable for [FC] when we fight opponenents who use radar, since the battles are more focused towards face to face combat, we enjoy these type of battles more. I would even go so far as to say the battle is more fair when everyone knows where everyone else is on the map, than when nobody knows where everyone else is.

Legitimate comment (as well as your response to it).  Again, I don't have an opinion as to say it's better or worse, just that it's different.

Just like radar mod, no brush skin mods are also fair advantages, because their use is NOT limited to only certain players. Again, an unfair advantage would be a server-sided mod that breaks the balance for certain teams or units, which clients/players cannot override through modding their own LVLs. Read my post above about autoaim rockets mod being unfair advantage and see how much different that is from radar, which can always be enabled at player's will.

All players can download no brush mod maps, and you are incorrect about the difficulty required, as both are very simple and essentially they are equally simple to mod. Radar mod requires a 2 line ODF code change and hit munge, no brush requires reskinning TGA file by just removing the foliage textures and replacing with alpha channel and hit munge. Anyone who knows how to use an image editor should have no trouble removing brush using this very simple method. The no brush mod would not be unfair if the other side chose not to use it simply because they chose not to learn how to mod.

A mod advantage is not unfair just because certain players lack the incentive to utilize these advantages. Also nobody can use the excuse that the knowledge is hidden, because there are several tutorials on this website which blatantly explain how to make these mods. A mod advantage is unfair if the server host can and does force only certain players to be able to utilize the advantage, another example of this would be the host adding autoheal to one team but not the other. So like I said, radar crosshairs and no brush mods are available to all players who choose to use them, and this fact alone makes these mods fair potential advantages.

You're right, but I was merely pointing out that accessibility is another factor to consider with regards to fairness.

[Kit Fisto]

Offtopic: In your signature Phobos you say 1.2 is a mod. Doesn't that change things in the Battlefront.exe which doesn't make it a mod?



Let's look at this from another game made by some of the same people who made SWBFI. SWBFII!

There are a few things that people consider cheating in SWBFII. One being adding a sniper reticule to the sniper. This can be achieved through mods but the developers left it out for a reason. But all the other units have reticules. So by your theory Phobos, it's ok to add a sniper reticule?

You can make all buildings and props in SWBFII transparent through mods and in Coruscant: Jedi Temple map there is a transparent part of the map so does that mean it's ok to make every single prop/building transparent?

Are those 2 examples cheats? Or fair mods that don't give anyone an advantage?

[Phobos]

I think you've missed my point.  If you'll read my post again, you'll notice that it's specifically tailored to the ICW, and not in general.  A UNIVERSAL RULE AGAINST RADAR AS WELL, AS AGAINST AUTO AIM, AFFECTS EVERYBODY EQUALLY.

Agreed but you still have to understand they cannot be equally enforced using the same methods, no radar is harder to enforce because it cannot controlled via server host (unless using special addon mod maps like SK's).

That's true and all... but, I didn't say "could change scanning/transmit range."  What I said was "would change the scanning and transmit range."  A one letter difference, but that one letter does change the meaning.  With a c, could means that people have the ability to change the values.  As I wrote it, would means that people would use this ability to change the values to make a mod where every unit can see every opponent everywhere.

Pandemic expected players to modify the values, that's why there are comments such as "would be cool if this worked for vehicles", and in the modding documents where Fred said he encourages modders to experiment and discover new ideas. So clearly they were not opposed to the idea of players/modders experimenting with radar ODF codes, since they even went so far as to include comments about it.

Okay, I'll explain.  When I say radar mod, I refer to when someone has modded the .ODF files for the various units to add the scanning and transmit codes such that every unit can see every opponent, everywhere.  Clearly, we're not on the same page.  What I argued was this: that Pandemic did not know that the radar mod would be created when they released the game.
Because I've noted the presence of stock instances of radar, for you to say that I am unaware of how they put radar in the ODF shows that you either did not read my post or did not understand it.
That said, your post from Fred is interesting.  I will address it in two sections: parity and with regards to Pandemic's knowledge of radar mod.
Parity: What it says is that radar is not in and of itself unfair.  That does not mean that it is fair in every instance.  A UNIVERSAL RULE AGAINST RADAR AFFECTS EVERYBODY EQUALLY.
Pandemic's knowledge of radar mod: I think that you need more to prove that Pandemic knew that people would create the radar mod.  All this suggests is that *he* at one point knew that people could (with a c) do that and that he personally did not have any problems with it... you note he's a developer and not a spokesman.

Pandemic had already created a radar mod (albiet for recons and vehicles, not units) before releasing the modding tools, that is what I'm saying. They might not have specifically tested unit radar but there is nothing in the mod tools to suggest they would oppose this.
I don't see why I need to prove what mods pandemic knew people would or wouldn't develop, because they were only speculating what mods players would create when they released the modding tools. That's why they were released partially, to see new ideas that pandemic didn't have enough time to develop (Fred has mentioned this also various times).
So yes, fred is/was a swbf1 developer, and the closest thing to an official spokesperson we are going to get, since he is the only pandemic developer we can still reach through email.

I don't see this "wallhack analogy."  I'd love to see it.  Also, if I were a real troll I'd push your use of the world "wallhack" further, as it seems to contradict your definitions in other threads.  But I'll let it slide.
I submit that fairness implies more than equal access as balance concerns need to be taken into consideration.
On the grounds of fairness: A UNIVERSAL RULE AGAINST RADAR AS WELL AS AGAINST AUTO AIM AFFECTS EVERYBODY EQUALLY.  Read those last three words, please.  People on same level playing field are fair.

I am not specifically referring to wallhack as if it were a Wall Hack (a memory hack), wallhack in my definition is slang for wall glitch, as I defined in my "differences between mods and hacks" blog. The analogy I posted earlier in this thread, Buckler may have moved it though, I'll try to find the link again and edit it into this post here.
Edit heres the link
http://www.swbfgamers.com/index.php?topic=6881.msg73265#msg73265

Radar is a mod that gives a fair advantage, it is fair because every player can choose to use it or not. It would only be unfair if certain players players could not use the mod, but there is nothing a server host can do to prevent radar, thus making it FAIR. You can't just claim radar is unfair because you CHOOSE not to use it. If you were unable to choose to use radar, then you could argue it is unfair. Like glitching in a wall, once you are in the wall you can kill others without being killed, and prevent them from getting in the wall, this is an example of an unfair advantage. Radar provides a slight advantage to those who choose to utilize it, giving players more information about the battle, and is always available to any players (unless the server is using a mod map specifically designed to counter radar use)

I am glad that you consider equality to be an important factor to consider when measuring fairness. I agree that when all players are on the same playing field it is fair, but when no rules exist to oppose mods which any player can enable by choice, imo all client sided mods are fair game.

What's a mod?  From your distinction of mods and hacks, the former is modifying code and the latter is changing memory.  I've already recognized that there are stock instances of radar.  Therefore, context dictates that radar and radar mod refer to different things.  Because mod means making modifications, it seems logical that "radar" sans "mod" refers to the stock instances of radar and "radar mod" refers to a modification allowing for every unit to be able to see every opponent, everywhere.
Further, forgive my paltry understanding of modding, you cannot mod something before the mod tools are released.   Sure, radar existed before the mod tools—but the RADAR MOD did not

Mod = LVL file which has been altered/modified in a way other than the stock LVL files.
Hack = a trainer exe, or memory alteration to the battlefront.exe, any other EXE file (launchers, nick changer) hack the memory and are hacks.
Radar and radar mod would be diffrentiated, if a radar hack actually existed. To my knowledge no such hack exists, the only way to enable radar is through radar mods.

My sole troll comment and you skirted it.  Good work.
In clan battles, it's not that hard to have a general idea of where people are and where they're going without the use of the radar mod.  I won't go so far as to say that radar eliminates this strategic element.  I will say that the radar mod just changes the strategic elements, for better or for worse.  You claim it's better and I have no real opinion.

I agree that radar can vastly alter strategy, for better or worse depends on many variables. I claim that the player using radar has more knowledge about which tactics can possibly be utilized than the player not using radar.

You're right, but I was merely pointing out that accessibility is another factor to consider with regards to fairness.

As an example of this point, Helios has offered public accessibility to radar mod. It is just as fair to use these mods if the offer is declined as it is if accepted. Not supplying radar mods to anyone who wanted to use them could be considered unfair though, in a tournament matches.

[Phobos]

Offtopic: In your signature Phobos you say 1.2 is a mod. Doesn't that change things in the Battlefront.exe which doesn't make it a mod?

Technically its an upgrade and a mod. The cis rep and imp side lvls are modified/altered differently than 1.0, as is the shell for instance (and the common too I believe). The upgrade is done to the executable and the rest is mods to the true original 1.0 LVL files. If a person says they hate all mods, technically they are saying they hate 1.2 since it is also (partially) a mod.

There are a few things that people consider cheating in SWBFII. One being adding a sniper reticule to the sniper. This can be achieved through mods but the developers left it out for a reason. But all the other units have reticules. So by your theory Phobos, it's ok to add a sniper reticule?

Although I don't play BF2, I would say it is not cheating to add a crosshair reticule to the sniper, as long as any client has the option to enable it in any server they want, and the server does not specifically prohibit such mods. That is my view on it.

You can make all buildings and props in SWBFII transparent through mods and in Coruscant: Jedi Temple map there is a transparent part of the map so does that mean it's ok to make every single prop/building transparent?

The same logic would apply, I do not believe a player who mods their world to see through walls is cheating, as long as every client has the option to do so, and the server host does not have rules against such mods. I tested see through mods on cloud city and found they actually hurt more than help.

Are those 2 examples cheats? Or fair mods that don't give anyone an advantage?

They are cheats only if the server host does not allow such mods. If unspecified or acceptable, they are not cheats just fair mods that give anyone who chooses to use them a potential advantage.

[Kit Fisto]

Alright. That tells me all that I need to know.

[Carbon27]

So this is a topic to talk about radar? It will later be called the topic that started WW3...

In my opinion, radar is only noobish when you play it on a server not meant for radar, and play a bunch of people without it. The mod is fine, but if you want to use it, use it on one of FC's awesome servers or any server that allows it.

For tournaments it's only wrong using it against people who don't have it.

[Phobos]

For tournaments it's only wrong using it against people who don't have it.

Well if radar is available to all players and the tourney admins allow it (for certain matches at least), it couldn't be considered wrong, since the other team has the choice to use it. But if you were to use it without the tourney admin permission or other players knowing you use radar or not having access to it, it would be wrong.

[SirPimped]

I'll give my thoughts on this topic.

By action I mean fighting, there is more face-to-face combat if everyone in the server is using radar. There is not less fighting just because a small skirmish may end quicker, because there are overall going to be more skirmishes when players are using radar.  When all players are using radar, there is less running around, having to rely on sneaking up behind people and flanking to get kills, and the battles go faster and are more intense, because after you die the battle is quicker to resume than if you didn't have radar. Players using radar don't have to try to guess where the enemy is, you always know where they are, they always know where you are, so the battle can be sustained at greater intensity for longer time. It makes wars more enjoyable for [FC] when we fight opponenents who use radar, since the battles are more focused towards face to face combat, we enjoy these type of battles more. I would even go so far as to say the battle is more fair when everyone knows where everyone else is on the map, than when nobody knows where everyone else is.

This post is the reason I use radar. For me, the fun in this game is the action and the fighting. If I'm not fighting and shooting I don't want to play. Radar makes it so that there are always fights happening. This is obviously just my opinion.

Other people find it more fun to capture CP's, "flank", or play hide and go seek. That's fine. I encourage you to play the way that gives you the most enjoyment. But I would ask that you don't attack the way I play, just because you don't think my way is fun. Why is your fun more important than my fun? I don't attack players for not using radar, so why would you attack me for using it?