SWBFGamers

Instead of discussing whether or not people think it's a cheat, I just want to collect a sample of votes from this community regarding how people feel about radar being used in public servers. Do you think it is acceptable or not? I'm referring to most public servers (not tournaments or anything official) where the host does not specify to players any rules about radar being used.

3 people so far said yes. those are the boys who rely on them. prob same group of people >.>

Quote from: Jamman on September 19, 2012, 03:53:26 PM
3 people so far said yes. those are the boys who rely on them. prob same group of people >.>

:friend: I like you.

I don't approve, but i rather they do it there then in a tournament....  :D :whip:

Quote from: Jamman on September 19, 2012, 03:53:26 PM
3 people so far said yes. those are the boys who rely on them. prob same group of people >.>

I voted yes. I can confirm this statement is a logical fallacy, and just an excuse to scorn players who don't try to impose their play standards on others. Just because someone is open to the consideration of players using a certain mod does not automatically make them dependent on it. I played in SleepKiller's 1v1 cloud city tournament, without any radar or crosshair mods (except sniper), and I managed to win. He also thought I would be too dependent on the mods and dared me to play without them, which I did. The only thing I rely on is skill and good ping. I can't speak for anyone else who votes yes but I'm willing to bet you are most likely wrong about them too.

Wrong  :sleep:

Quote from: Jamman on September 19, 2012, 04:35:11 PM
Wrong  :sleep:

nope
http://www.swbfgamers.com/index.php?action=profile;area=awardsMembers;id=6

I voted indifferent.  I don't think that, in the absence of equality of opportunity, it's fair--which isn't necessarily unfair; indeed, if it were widely available, then I don't think it would be unfair, which isn't necessarily fair.

Quote from: Phobos on September 19, 2012, 04:23:31 PM
I voted yes. I can confirm this statement is a logical fallacy, and just an excuse to scorn players who don't try to impose their play standards on others. Just because someone is open to the consideration of players using a certain mod does not automatically make them dependent on it. I played in SleepKiller's 1v1 cloud city tournament, without any radar or crosshair mods (except sniper), and I managed to win. He also thought I would be too dependent on the mods and dared me to play without them, which I did. The only thing I rely on is skill and good ping. I can't speak for anyone else who votes yes but I'm willing to bet you are most likely wrong about them too.

You didn't just win, you dominated.

I think that there's a predisposition of talented players towards the use of modifications, simply because in order to to be talented, you need to have played for a while and the more experience you have, the more likely you are to use a modification.  I think that describing this phenomenon in significantly different terms boarders on correlation.

(https://www.swbfgamers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgs.xkcd.com%2Fcomics%2Fcorrelation.png&hash=50936c74fbe543b9cef5f781101675714b5b6213)

I like your logic BlackScorpion.I might add that for some players (not all) the reason we start using mods after 2-3 years of play is simply to add more dynamic to the game esp. in multiplayer. Some people just get bored using stock skins, stock crosshairs, stock minimap, etc. and some people don't.

ik i get bored of the same old crosshairs, I voted yes because when playing online its your game that you are playing, yes Phobos is right about getting bored over some stock. And the thing is there are mods that will most likely will be created that can be considered more of a hack. So why fight over this particular mod, yes its not revealed to the public. Hey you want it well make it on your own, as pysc0fred did he created the radar mod alot of the people complaining are most probably complaining because they don't have it, although the stronger SWBF players most definitely do not need such a mod for they have such skill that is unmatched as of now.

I voted indifferent, which essentially amounts to a yes. In fact, I view these answers as equivalent because it isn't about what you personally use, it's about your level of tolerance for what others use.

The idea that if radar were to suddenly vanish, all the great players who use it would turn into little noobs is hilarious

^^ i actually think that might be true :D

I voted indifferent because honestly why does it matter? SWBF is a game and I think if you play online it should be for fun and not to troll of be all like "Oh I'm so good at this!!" That is what sports are for lol. Why does it matter? Just have fun playing a game that will soon be 10 years old with people who also love the game.
Play in the DC's some time, everybody just has fun, none of this "I'm good" stuff in it.

I vote indifferent because I didn't know what radar was until I saw the argument thread about it here. So in otherwords, I don't use it and don't plan on doing so

I'm probably indifferent, but I clicked no for some reason.

I think its Ok to use Radar in public servers, cause its JUST A MOD, same like Xhairs, modded core, and those things.
If ure gonna tell me it gives u advantage, ill tell u : Doesnt a good crosshair do too ?
So I voted Yes.
But if host dislikes players to use it, and he knows u have it, just dont use it when he is online.


Kit Fisto, wanna make a DC this weekend with some other guys ? :D

Quote from: ImmortaL Anyder on September 20, 2012, 06:26:57 AM
Kit Fisto, wanna make a DC this weekend with some other guys ? :D

I might. Partly because I have a Water Polo tourament ( again ) this Friday and Saturday. But if you make a different topic and get time/maps and all that I might be able to play. :cheers:

Funny, when I try to play DC, my radar is always jammed... If somebody know, how to switch it on, it's cud be explanation, why people always found me, and kill, before, I even try figure out, what's going on...
With radar, the life is surely easy! I cud not allow anyone come to close, and shooting in me by those missiles. Also, I may easy finding snipers, sitting somewhere, in the other side of the map. So, it will be totaly mid range game, and my rifle will be realy lethal weapon ;).
It is realy shame, I do not know, to swtch radar on... :( So, I think, it is not fair ;).

I like radar, although i've never used it, I like the challenge of trying to kill another player that is "cheating."
But I don't like it because it makes the newbies whine/spam the whole time...

Quote from: RepublicCommando on September 26, 2012, 09:32:26 PM
I like radar, although i've never used it, I like the challenge of trying to kill another player that is "cheating."
But I don't like it because it makes the newbies whine/spam the whole time...

It's only cheating if the host says it's not allowed. Otherwise no.

Quote from: RepublicCommando on September 26, 2012, 09:32:26 PM
I like radar, although i've never used it, I like the challenge of trying to kill another player that is "cheating."
But I don't like it because it makes the newbies whine/spam the whole time...

None of the preceding sentences make any sense.

I'd approve of radar if everyone on the server had it

What Phobos said, plus I agree that any form of mod may just basically cause Advantage if that's it's idea. It's only the noobs who are too lazy to get the mod themselves that spam.

I would say yes because if no one says you cant do it why cant you? So if a Restrant has a no loitering sign then you cant loiter but if there isnt then u can loiter! Probly doesnt make sence to uou but it does to me! :tu:

Quote from: {Recruit}FrenchFry on September 27, 2012, 04:44:54 PM
I would say yes because if no one says you cant do it why cant you? So if a Restrant has a no loitering sign then you cant loiter but if there isnt then u can loiter! Probly doesnt make sence to uou but it does to me! :tu:

It makes sense to me. anyone heard of moral hazard? I dont care what your opinion on radar is, if you're in a situation where
-the server host doesn't care
-there's no realistic way of monitoring its use
-radar is fairly easy to enable
then you are put in a very weak position by saying unequivocally that radar is bad. Once you're done calling out and publicly bashing the handful of people who see no problem in public declaring that they use radar, the other 75% are still using it and you have actually made the game less fair by keeping the playing field uneven.

In short, I maintain that regardless of your personal opinion, from a pragmatic perspective neutrality/acceptance is the only policy that makes sense.

Don't mistake the inability of enforcement for not caring.

Oh jeez, I cannot stand the neutrality/acceptance policies.. I think if you use radar, or any other cheat, then you imply that you are unable to play by the standard rules of the game. If everyone in a specific server has the exact same cheats then the playing field is leveled once again so I think that would be fine. But its not fair if everyone else plays by the standard rules and one or two other people use some kind of cheating advantage. Nobody likes a cheater! :whip: I prefer to play fairly, win or lose.

I agree wit Snake :cheers:

Well Snake, you would be right...IF the server said NO (Imput Cheat here) or the admin said you cant! But if no one tells you that you cant what are the reasons you shouldnt! I think its just logic....But I see what you are saying

Quote from: Snake on September 27, 2012, 08:12:21 PM
Oh jeez, I cannot stand the neutrality/acceptance policies.. I think if you use radar, or any other cheat, then you imply that you are unable to play by the standard rules of the game. If everyone in a specific server has the exact same cheats then the playing field is leveled once again so I think that would be fine. But its not fair if everyone else plays by the standard rules and one or two other people use some kind of cheating advantage. Nobody likes a cheater! :whip: I prefer to play fairly, win or lose.

Everything in this post reflects my opinion. You don't like the way the game came without radar to see enemies in MP? Don't play it. Most games don't let you see your enemies on radar Modern Warfare 3 being one that I just played however like SWBF it let's you see enemies locations when they fire. A perfectly reasonable person. Going by the logic of [FC] it would be okay for me to go ahead and make an aimbot because anybody could download the programs needed to program such a device, but aimbots are frowned on in every single FPS I have ever played. The radar hack may not be as powerful as a aimbot but it is still a cheat and should be treated as such. I have no idea how you some of you guys can justify its use in public servers.  I'm not looking to pick a fight here, please don't think I am.

Quote from: Snake on September 27, 2012, 08:12:21 PM
Oh jeez, I cannot stand the neutrality/acceptance policies.. I think if you use radar, or any other cheat, then you imply that you are unable to play by the standard rules of the game. If everyone in a specific server has the exact same cheats then the playing field is leveled once again so I think that would be fine. But its not fair if everyone else plays by the standard rules and one or two other people use some kind of cheating advantage. Nobody likes a cheater! :whip: I prefer to play fairly, win or lose.

"Standard rules of the game", I don't know what these supposedly are, but if you are implying there is some sort of standard or rule that says radar is cheating, I would like confirmation these rules exist. It's quite fair for someone to use a mod which the server has not clarified its position towards. Nobody likes it when when a person or a few people in a server (who are not host) try to set the standards for other players.

What exactly are these "standard rules" you keep referring to? I've yet to see any official documentation stating that radar is not allowed under these 'standard rules'. I've never heard of them and neither have most other players. Rules cannot be imaginatively invented by players in a server (players who are not the host) and then expected to be followed by other players who may choose to use mods to enhance their game if so wanted. It's also incorrect to definitively label radar as a 'cheat no matter what the server circumstances'. And if everyone has radar, that certainly does not mean 'everyone is cheating'. By your logic every single player in this game is a cheater, since radar is enabled for all players in a server at the end of game when one team goes under 20 reinforcements.

Unless you can show me official LucasArts or Pandemic documentation outlining these standard rules against radar which you claim exist, I'll just assume these so-called 'rules' are nothing more than 'shared opinions' of the few people who are against radar and have actually managed to convince themselves it's a cheat in every circumstance even if the server host explicitly allows or encourages its use in their servers. (In fact in FC servers we encourage players to use radar, that does not mean we encourage cheating. It means we choose to have our servers set up to allow for enhanced skill training you can't get in most other servers. Logically in a server where there is no CPs, and everyone has radar, it removes the noob tactics of flanking, a player always knows where the action is, and it promotes face-to-face combat situations which I believe enhance skill more than sneaking around and relying on getting most of your kills from shooting people in the back. Also it lets us listen to music while playing and ENJOY the game more rather than having to rely heavily on sound to know where enemies are. Like I say, different servers, different standards.)

Your post implies these 'standard rules' don't actually exist outside of your imagination if this is the case it would be more sensible to say:  "I think if you use radar, or anything else I consider a cheat, then you imply that you are unable to play by my view of how the the standard rules of the game should be. " Let me make it clear this implication would be erroneous. Virtually nobody who started playing this game started off with radar (maybe a very very few did but not likely). They are just as capable of playing with radar as they are without radar. It is more or less a choice of whether that person wants to use it or not. How should the game be for everyone? Defined by a few people who don't host servers or mod, but want everyone else to play exactly how they do? OR should each individual have the right to play and mod how they so choose, with the server host having the right to ban anyone whose mods or play style they dont approve of?

Quote from: SleepKiller on September 28, 2012, 05:24:53 AM
You don't like the way the game came without radar to see enemies in MP? Don't play it.

This kind of logic says that rather than modding the game to change what an individual player doesn't like, he should instead stop playing the game. How ridiculous. By that logic you are also saying quit the game before modding anything, and are giving advice you explicitly do not follow.
Its the equivalent of saying: "You don't like the way the game came with default map skins, unit skins, and crosshairs? Don't play it."
Sorry but I'd rather mod whatever it is I didn't like so that I do like it, rather than quit playing just because someone has a beef with how I choose to mod the game.

Quote from: SleepKiller on September 28, 2012, 05:24:53 AM
Going by the logic of [FC] it would be okay for me to go ahead and make an aimbot because anybody could download the programs needed to program such a device, but aimbots are frowned on in every single FPS I have ever played. The radar hack may not be as powerful as a aimbot but it is still a cheat and should be treated as such. I have no idea how you some of you guys can justify its use in public servers.  I'm not looking to pick a fight here, please don't think I am.

I have stated previously that aimbots are hacks, and that FC does not have the same view towards hacks as we do mods. I will repeat myself again and say that any mod which works online for clients (not server sided mods) are acceptable in FC, but this is not the view we have towards hacks. You can keep ignoring the fact that FC does acknowledge the difference and has no tolerance for aimbots if you'd like, but just so everyone else knows, the views of FC towards radar MOD (not hack, there isn't such a thing), are the complete OPPOSITE of our views towards any Aim hacks which exist in actuality or in theory.

We justify its use in servers where the host does not care or has not stated any rules about it being allowed or not. We will not use it in any server where the rules of the server host say it isn't allowed. And the only rules I see being official are ones set by the server host, opinions of players in the server cannot be made into rules.

People who mod their game skins, crosshairs, and other things think its okay and not cheating. But then turn around and say that anyone who mods their sides for radar is suddenly cheating? Its a contradicting, confusing mentality I could never buy into even if I wanted to.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one Snake and SleepKiller.

QuoteI have stated previously that aimbots are hacks, and that FC does not have the same view towards hacks as we do mods. I will repeat myself again and say that any mod which works online for clients (not server sided mods) are acceptable in FC, but this is not the view we have towards hacks. You can keep ignoring the fact that FC does acknowledge the difference and has no tolerance for aimbots if you'd like, but just so everyone else knows, the views of FC towards radar MOD (not hack, there isn't such a thing), are the complete OPPOSITE of our views towards any Aim hacks which exist in actuality or in theory.

Hacks can be mods and mods can be hacks. Simple as that.

QuotePeople who mod their game skins, crosshairs, and other things think its okay and not cheating. But then turn around and say that anyone who mods their sides for radar is suddenly cheating? Its a contradicting, confusing mentality I could never buy into even if I wanted to.

So much is wrong with this let's start with player skins, modding those isn't about to give somebody an advantage. Map skins can be used to gain an advantage with the right one, I have always tried to avoid making anyone that could give somebody an advantage.

Quote from: SleepKiller on September 28, 2012, 06:03:59 AM
Hacks can be mods and mods can be hacks. Simple as that.
So much is wrong with this let's start with player skins, modding those isn't about to give somebody an advantage. Map skins can be used to gain an advantage with the right one, I have always tried to avoid making anyone that could give somebody an advantage.

Ok please demonstrate or explain how to make a "twilight cloud city skin hack", a "modified crosshair hack", a "disable cps hack", a "remove death regions hack", and how about a "move building models around on the world hack".

By claiming any mod can be made into a hack, you are saying ANY changes a person makes to MSH, ODF, LUA files, can be replicated by hacking the games internal memory. I really can't believe this is possible but if you want to go ahead. If you can explain how this is done then I might. However I draw very large distinctions between mods and hacks in this game.

Modding player skins is going to give an advantage in certain scenarios. The word advantage itself is relative to the exact situation of any current game. Empire is white on hoth, hoth snow is white, its meant to blend in and make them more camoflouged, just like rebel skins on Endor. But a player can easily mod the player or map skins to replace the camouflage quality with contrasting colors that stand out more, giving them a much bigger advantage than players who use stock skins in those scenarios. A player can also hex edit the unit model, and make the TGA transparent, giving them a wireframe or see through advantage. So you see, in some cases modding skins can be even more advantageous than having radar. That's why I say, neither one is a cheat in my view, and being opposed to one but not the other is a contradicting mindset.

And just saying, if Pandemic/LucasArts really was as opposed to the idea of players modding radar as some people seem to think, they never would have released the side assets with bfbuilder.

I meant a mod is capable of being a hack just as a hack is capable of being a mod.

Quote from: SleepKiller on September 28, 2012, 06:17:21 AM
I meant a mod is capable of being a hack just as a hack is capable of being a mod.

Some are yes, but many are not. How can a mod which moves buildings around on a certain map (via zeroeditor changes), be replicated as a hack? How can you disable death regions by hacking the game instead of using hex edit mods? It may be possible, but if nobody knows where to even begin then practically speaking it has yet to be proven.

Quote from: SleepKiller on September 28, 2012, 06:03:59 AM
So much is wrong with this let's start with player skins, modding those isn't about to give somebody an advantage.

I would tend to disagree with this statement, SK, at least in certain circumstances.  You could make mines more easy to see in Jabba's Palace, or give your enemy a bright orange skin to make them easier to see.  In those cases, I think some advantage would be gained.  It is he magnitude of that advantage that is debateable.

As a public stock map server host, I can not control such things.  And, some players will always have some advantage, such as low ping, that may overwhelm other custom client mod advantages.

Our work to examine the radar situation may eventually lead me to take a firm stance on radar in PLA servers, but for now there is nothing I can do about it, so I can not get to worked up about it.  (Although it is annoying to get pegged with a shot gun when I peek out behind walls... :) )

My thoughts on tournament servers (that I play in) are different however, in that this issue should be specifically addressed by the use of a mod map that allows everyone to have it or no one to have it.

Player skins as in clones, droids and rebels those lot of people. Modding the skin of mines can definitely give somebody an advantage.

Flanking isn't dumb at all. Countless times, there will be Empire Jets that head over to the droid cafe on the rebel side once the game starts, and start shooting people in the hall Cp, eventually to go and take it. That's flanking. I am sure that at one time or another, everyone has done that. But then there is that one person on a server who has eyes glued to their map in the bottom corner watching the enemy at 400 tickets. That has got to be the lamest thing. I hate it in Public and Private servers, but when someone brings their radar bullcrap to the PLA server with 32 slots, thats just ruining the game for those without it. In case you didnt know it, thats the last place a guy can go to enjoy SWBF1 without a crapload of server mods. If you need an advantage such as radar, why don't you stick to your own servers...maybe the Ai standing behind a building wont freak out when you go and shoot the back of their head.

Quote from: Jamman on September 28, 2012, 03:31:13 PM
Flanking isn't dumb at all. Countless times, there will be Empire Jets that head over to the droid cafe on the rebel side once the game starts, and start shooting people in the hall Cp, eventually to go and take it. That's flanking. I am sure that at one time or another, everyone has done that. But then there is that one person on a server who has eyes glued to their map in the bottom corner watching the enemy at 400 tickets. That has got to be the lamest thing. I hate it in Public and Private servers, but when someone brings their radar bullcrap to the PLA server with 32 slots, thats just ruining the game for those without it. In case you didnt know it, thats the last place a guy can go to enjoy SWBF1 without a crapload of server mods. If you need an advantage such as radar, why don't you stick to your own servers...maybe the Ai standing behind a building wont freak out when you go and shoot the back of their head.

I'm glad most people in the PLA server don't care THAT much about what mods other players use lol like i say if your game is nothing but flanking then maybe its ruined otherwise not really since face to face fighting will truly show who has more skill regardless

MAybe, but then (say in cc hallway) you just go into cover for a reload and jump out the window to try to flank them you dont stand a chance against mm so it turns out that you are being flanked instead... I think radar doesnt have as much affect in public server as you wouldnt target someone on the other side of the map anyway when you have shots coming at you from another direction. I think it has more of an affect in 1vs1 or small battles :(

voted no because it's simply a hack and it gives you huge advantage (not like crosshairs) over your opponents. working like a wallhack pretty much... in games like counter strike you would've to pay for those kind of "mods", as some of you call it, if you don't want to get banned

Can someone make him an award? If this was dayz, i would give my last can of beans to deagle.

[spoiler](https://www.swbfgamers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi795.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fyy236%2F_Jamman_%2Ffordeagle.png&hash=9919e13fda2ebd749bdb648f4636fbf2097317a4)[/spoiler]

Quote from: DEAGLE on October 03, 2012, 02:03:11 AM
voted no because it's simply a hack and it gives you huge advantage (not like crosshairs) over your opponents. working like a wallhack pretty much...

not at all. its a MODification to side lvls as crosshairs are modification to common lvl

 

I don't think my opinion really matters here, seeing as most of you don't know me, however i'd like to get my 2 cents in =). I'm completely neutral when it comes to using radar, but I think there's a time and a place where it should and shouldn't be used. If it's your own server and you allow it, than great. If it's a public server that's full than I think it un-levels the playing field. Seeing as the majority of people don't know how to use it, it's unfair *IN MY OPINION* for others. If too many people are complaining about it, than you shouldn't be doing it in other public servers anyways. Seeing the votes here 50% say it's unfair and way less than half say it is, majority rules >.>. And as for changing reticules, they can only help so much... I mean you could have the worlds worst player and he could be using the best reticules and would still suck. Same with making skins that give an advantage, they only go so far. But with radar, the problem is you always know where everyone is, despite of what skin or reticule, and that basically takes the challenge of MP away, you always know where there going to be before they can even see you.. and sure you say it helps going head to head, but some might use radar and still flank others, which than it becomes even more of an annoyance. As for saying it's a hack, I don't agree at all with that. Wallhacks are where you can shoot through the wall as well, and i've never heard or seen of a hack for this game. Also, I don't get why pro players would want to use it, if they already have spot on aim.. than it basically becomes AA so to speak. If it continues to be such an ordeal, why doesn't swbfgamers just release a tutorial on how to do it? I mean it would solve all the arguing (even though I still wouldn't use it), and if someone is really against it, than they won't use it. Don't get me wrong some players complain about it for the soul purpose that they don't know how to do it, aha. So theres my 2 cents, and once again this is just my opinion.. i'm 50/50 on using radar >.<.

I honestly don’t know the first thing about modding. I still need help from people to install new maps for events like the ICW. But here is my theory on the situation…

I have played this game for about 8 years now. Lately, I feel like my skill level is peaking. In other words, I think of it as a “ceiling” that I am approaching, but I will never actually hit or never go higher than in the confines of the game as they are. I think of it in terms of a graph in algebra with an asymptote I cannot cross. I will always approach the asymptote, but never hit or cross it. Now to raise that “ceiling” level, people have used things like mods to raise their ceiling level so they can have better skill level potential. At some point I may experiment with mods (possibly radar), because as it is now, I don’t feel like I can improve at any higher of a rate than I am at the moment (which I feel is pretty low).

To conclude, this is just a game, but it is a game I really enjoy playing. I really like to improve my skill every time I play. Seeing as how I may not be able to improve any more within the normal confines of the game, I may look to outside sources for improvement such as mods. If a crosshair can make me a better player, then I may try it to improve myself. If radar can raise my ceiling level then I may try it to raise my skill level potential.

As a side note, my playing style is very aggressive. The use of radar for me would be to find where the action is. I am in favor of anything in this game that promotes fighting and more of it. I always want to be in the middle of the action, so if I can use radar to help me find where that is, then it sounds ok to me.

FTW "No" 21-15    :apesmall: :3rd:

edit: no smiley spam please

What joseph said about the indifference thing is basically true, meaning that so far its a pretty even split between the people who are okay with it and those who are personally offended when other players use radar in pub servers

And the majority vote here does not suddenly turn it into "rules". The server host sets the rules, the votes here have no actual impact on how most people are going to choose to play the game. This thread was made to get a statistical idea of where people in this community stand. And the results thus far have greatly reinforced the decision I made a few months back.  :cheers:

Quote from: sirpimped on October 03, 2012, 12:31:55 PM
I honestly don't know the first thing about modding. I still need help from people to install new maps for events like the ICW. But here is my theory on the situation...

I have played this game for about 8 years now. Lately, I feel like my skill level is peaking. In other words, I think of it as a "ceiling" that I am approaching, but I will never actually hit or never go higher than in the confines of the game as they are. I think of it in terms of a graph in algebra with an asymptote I cannot cross. I will always approach the asymptote, but never hit or cross it. Now to raise that "ceiling" level, people have used things like mods to raise their ceiling level so they can have better skill level potential. At some point I may experiment with mods (possibly radar), because as it is now, I don't feel like I can improve at any higher of a rate than I am at the moment (which I feel is pretty low).

To conclude, this is just a game, but it is a game I really enjoy playing. I really like to improve my skill every time I play. Seeing as how I may not be able to improve any more within the normal confines of the game, I may look to outside sources for improvement such as mods. If a crosshair can make me a better player, then I may try it to improve myself. If radar can raise my ceiling level then I may try it to raise my skill level potential.

As a side note, my playing style is very aggressive. The use of radar for me would be to find where the action is. I am in favor of anything in this game that promotes fighting and more of it. I always want to be in the middle of the action, so if I can use radar to help me find where that is, then it sounds ok to me.

There may in fact be a "ceiling" or "plateau" for some people in terms of skill, but I am not willing to accept the possibility that at some point I will no longer be able to improve my skill beyond a certain limitation as long as I keep training efficiently. How exactly mods help you improve skill is relatively subjective, I prefer to view it as simply: I will gain skill at a faster rate using certain types of mods than I would if i played the game with no mods. This is also the case for server sided mods and its why FC servers are so much different than the others. If you feel you are close to reaching your peak with the game as it is setup by default, maybe mods will give you enough optimism that you can raise the roof so to speak. Some other points you bring up here I also agree with and perhaps we could have a conversation about this sometime over xfire

Quote from: Whiteßread on October 03, 2012, 12:26:51 PM
If it continues to be such an ordeal, why doesn't swbfgamers just release a tutorial on how to do it? I mean it would solve all the arguing (even though I still wouldn't use it), and if someone is really against it, than they won't use it.

There already is a tutorial on this forum how to make it, and it hasn't exactly 'solved' any arguing  :dry:

don't you guys remember good old times when no one (probably just belk) was playing with those things? just let it go and play normal, it's so much more fun. I can't speak for the americans, but many of the last active euro players are leaving because of those discussions. I'll be done with bf in two or three months aswell, but I wanna tell you you're destroying a beautiful game

Quote from: DEAGLE on October 03, 2012, 05:16:47 PM
don't you guys remember good old times when no one (probably just belk) was playing with those things? just let it go and play normal, it's so much more fun. I can't speak for the americans, but many of the last active euro players are leaving because of those discussions. I'll be done with bf in two or three months aswell, but I wanna tell you you're destroying a beautiful game

I disagree 100% completely. The art of modding which many of us here at SWBFGamers are proficient at is expanding this awesome game and helping it to not die by adding more variety and content for the players to experience. If someone is quitting just because they are bothered by another player using radar, I highly doubt that it will have as serious of an effect on the life of the game itself as you seem to believe.

Just look at the contributions of BattleBelk for example. Without those I doubt we would have even half as many mods for this game as we do now. Mods do not kill games - they expand them. Radar is not going to kill this game. An aimbot that worked online in /noaim servers however, possibly could. Your accusations that we are destroying the game really exemplifies the lack of respect you have for SWBF.

Quote from: DEAGLE on October 03, 2012, 05:16:47 PM
don't you guys remember good old times when no one (probably just belk) was playing with those things? just let it go and play normal, it's so much more fun. I can't speak for the americans, but many of the last active euro players are leaving because of those discussions. I'll be done with bf in two or three months aswell, but I wanna tell you you're destroying a beautiful game

Yes. Deagle has got it. Just remeber playing when you first got the game with no mods or maps, just playing for the fun of it. As a lot of you say you like SWBF for the online play, so just enjoy the game.
Then you have to think about why you play SWBF at all? Is it to say "oh I'm so good at this game and you all suck" or to just have fun with it. You aren't proving to anyone that you are just such a great person because you are good at SWBF. It's like those jocks on your sports team that you just want to punch in the face.

[spoiler]sorry to spew out like that.  :shrug:[/spoiler]

Quote from: Phobos on October 03, 2012, 05:25:28 PM
I disagree 100% completely. The art of modding which many of us here at SWBFGamers are proficient at is expanding this awesome game and helping it to not die by adding more variety and content for the players to experience. If someone is quitting just because they are bothered by another player using radar, I highly doubt that it will have as serious of an effect on the life of the game itself as you seem to believe.

Just look at the contributions of BattleBelk for example. Without those I doubt we would have even half as many mods for this game as we do now. Mods do not kill games - they expand them. Radar is not going to kill this game. An aimbot that worked online in /noaim servers however, possibly could. Your accusations that we are destroying the game really exemplifies the lack of respect you have for SWBF.

I don't see why it's such a big deal for you. By using radar hack you're giving yourself an advantage over your opponent. Thats what hacks do. Because of that players are leaving. Call it mod or cheat, I don't really care.
I didn't said anything against modding itself. Believe me, those server mods are amazing, but I'm talking about client hacks/mods whatever.

And to the lack of respect for swbf: I don't use mm hack. You probably do. Now think again who has not enough respect for the game.

Quote from: DEAGLE on October 03, 2012, 11:07:53 PM
I don't see why it's such a big deal for you. By using radar hack you're giving yourself an advantage over your opponent. Thats what hacks do. Because of that players are leaving. Call it mod or cheat, I don't really care.
I didn't said anything against modding itself. Believe me, those server mods are amazing, but I'm talking about client hacks/mods whatever.

And to the lack of respect for swbf: I don't use mm hack. You probably do. Now think again who has not enough respect for the game.

Mods aren't hacks, hacks aren't mods. You're making it a big deal by claiming we 'destroy the game' by using mods that give advantages. I don't use any hacks at all for the game only mods so you are disrespecting mods by mislabeling them as hacks.

Since it is a mod, it can't be a cheat? :D i beg to differ.

You guys didn't know the difference? Haven't you read Phobos long rants about the difference? Paragraphs of his mind all layed out for everyone to see how much he wants radar to be used. They're on xfire and all over this site.

How do you expect to grow more and "raise the roof" when its basically two or three clans that play regularly, and then a bunch of people who probably get on after work to have some fun. I don't understand why you cant just use your mods on your server, and keep it off of the PLA ones.

Just  stick to "advancing that skill" with the rest of the FC. Yall can radar each other in your own area.

Quote from: sirpimped on October 03, 2012, 12:31:55 PM
If a crosshair can make me a better player, then I may try it to improve myself. If radar can raise my ceiling level then I may try it to raise my skill level potential.

But is it really making you a better player? Or are you equating being a  better player with more kills ?

Obviously you have to have a modification to hack since the game doesn't come with it.

deagle, is your claim that "people are leaving the game because of radar" coming from anywhere besides your rear end?

phobos' distinction between mod and hack is very clear and very important. it allows one to think more clearly about what changes to the game are permissible for an individual to make. people who say "anything that gives you an advantage is wrong" must be against xhair and skin mods which i know aint so.

Well, i was gonna try to stay out of this, cause i dont want ppl to take what i say personally and make enemies (and probs earn me a perm ban from FC for respectfully putting forth my opinion), but.......

Phobos, you are presenting beautifully formed arguments, and I really respect them. On the other hand, while reading over this, I am afraid that I might be biased, because I just look for holes in the radar argument. Ill try not to go through and pick it all apart, but just touch on some important or very interesting ones.


Yes, there are or is no standard rules of the game, but there usually seems to be a general consensus and respect, like for awhile no self respecting player would cp mine or use anything but sniper in 1.0.

Quote from: Phobos on October 03, 2012, 05:25:28 PMit removes the noob tactics of flanking

how can you on one play style, and then ask us to accept yours?

As i have said before, I think radar is 'over powered', since you don't see a radar like this in any other game, there is no delay, no way to counter act or balance, no strobing radar bar that gives you the location every couple of seconds, but a constant triangle even showing the direction one is looking. While it is okay to use with others, I think it is over powered to be used in public in its current form. I would be open to the idea of a scaled down version, with a possible way to balance or counter act maybe, as a compromise.

Arguing over the definition of radar is a good philosophical argument. Thats what really brought me out to post, and where i should have stayed. But I think mods like maps and name mods are cool and useful, but a mod that gives only a few a huge advantage over others, i think is what makes it a "hack" or "cheat". They are inexcusable in other games(you get kicked, banned, etc.), despite the fact that they are available to all.

Probs the main reason i still play swbf, is for the cool mods, and for the friends i have met ingame. I hope that we do not loose any friends or mods over this argument. Yes they released the ability to mod, and im glad they did that, but still would be opposed to this version of radar, but love how other things have modified the game.

Quote from: Phobos on October 03, 2012, 11:26:03 PM
We justify its use in servers where the host does not care or has not stated any rules about it being allowed or not. We will not use it in any server where the rules of the server host say it isn't allowed. And the only rules I see being official are ones set by the server host, opinions of players in the server cannot be made into rules.

this is why i still respect him and FC, cause they are trying to be respectful about this.

i had to chuckle at a couple of friends comments

Quote from: Jamman on October 04, 2012, 03:44:09 AMJust  stick to "advancing that skill" with the rest of the FC. Yall can radar each other in your own area.

Quote from: Joseph on October 04, 2012, 07:16:01 AM
deagle, is your claim that "people are leaving the game because of radar" coming from anywhere besides your rear end?

lollololololololololololoolololl

I really enjoy the modded servers, and that is because everyone gets the same advantage. Could you not figure out a way to put the MM on a FC server, so that everyone on that particular server got that advantage. I would then praise the MM for changing up the game and making it more interesting, and would ask for more servers like it. I could go to dif servers depending on the game type I felt like playing, but always have the familiar swbf to fall back on. With all the great mods youve developed, I think you guys could find a way.


Now ill stfu and go back to just reading this forum and keeping my opinions to myself, sry for being so wordy when i finally decided to talk.

@Joseph, as I already mentioned I don't give a single f*ck wether it's called hack or mod. I also don't care about crosshairs, skins whatever, because those advantages are minimal (I for myself play better without any changes). MM on the other side is, like ΙΞ¢KØ already said, over powered. You just don't stand a chance against a player on your skill level if he's using radar hack.
If someone would release a wallhack, would you support that aswell? Because it's working just the same as radar hack does.


And to Phobos: yes, I think that radar hack is in fact destroying the game. Probably not for you and other cheaters, but for people who still play fair and ofc future players aswell.

Quote from: Buckler on October 04, 2012, 06:08:40 AM
But is it really making you a better player? Or are you equating being a  better player with more kills ?

Well it depends on your definition of skill. Is it the quantity of kills? Is it the quality of kills (headshots, air kills, etc.)? Is it being able to beat players 1 v 1? Is it being able to kill multiple enemies at once? Is it being able to survive (have less deaths)? Is it the ability to take cps? Is it the ability to hold cps?

Maybe it's all of them, maybe it's some of them, and maybe it's none of them. Honestly, I don't know. It's a matter of opinion I suppose. Maybe a crosshair can make me a better player so that I can do all of those things better, but maybe it can't. Should I not try and never know? I asked myself all these question before. Honestly I still haven't come up with definitive answers.

@Phobos, there isnt a clear tutorial you have to be pretty good at modding to do it by finding the right tutorials that will give you snipits of information then piece it together as far as i can see???

Quote from: sirpimped on October 04, 2012, 08:30:58 AM
Well it depends on your definition of skill. Is it the quantity of kills? Is it the quality of kills (headshots, air kills, etc.)? Is it being able to beat players 1 v 1? Is it being able to kill multiple enemies at once? Is it being able to survive (have less deaths)? Is it the ability to take cps? Is it the ability to hold cps?

To me a good player is someone who enjoys the game and helps others to enjoy it aswell. Kills have nothing to to do with it. Points are just a combination of reaction time, strategy and hardware (including ping) which I do have some respect for but would rather play alongside/be someone who plays mostly for fun.

I partly agree with Deagle and I have considered stopping playing (but not for long :) )if the best players use mods to the point where games just aren't fun anymore but then I realised that if I don't use mods that give an advantage and play in different servers to the players that do everyone can continue to play the game in a way they enjoy.

Quote from: Jamman on October 04, 2012, 03:44:09 AM
You guys didn't know the difference? Haven't you read Phobos long rants about the difference? Paragraphs of his mind all layed out for everyone to see how much he wants radar to be used. They're on xfire and all over this site.

How do you expect to grow more and "raise the roof" when its basically two or three clans that play regularly, and then a bunch of people who probably get on after work to have some fun. I don't understand why you cant just use your mods on your server, and keep it off of the PLA ones.

Just  stick to "advancing that skill" with the rest of the FC. Yall can radar each other in your own area.

As far as I know, you're name isn't Led. When Led says we can't use radar in PLA servers, then we won't use radar in PLA servers. Until that happens, quit trying to authoritatively impose your standards on how you feel FC members should play in servers which you are NOT the host for. If I want to advance my skill there I am going to train there using the style of play I enjoy most. You start hosting your own servers and I won't use radar there. Fact is more SWBF players besides FC use radar, more than you think. Try letting each player play the game how they want to, and quit complaining about how its their 'mods' that ruin the game for you. Maybe its just your inability to adapt to a greater challenge? If you don't like how the rules of PLA server allow for radar (optionally), you don't have to play there.

I'm not going to explain to you in any further detail how our mods let us 'raise the roof' of skill since you are anti-modder and would only further insult our methods. Keep on hating a harmless radar mod, it isn't going anywhere.

I cannot simplify this any further:
Mods = Changes to any files within the AddOn and _LVL_PC folders (primarily LVL files)
Hacks = Changes to the executable (battlefront.EXE)
Radar = Mod

Quote from: «ΙΞ¢KØ» on October 04, 2012, 07:17:25 AM

Yes they released the ability to mod, and im glad they did that, but still would be opposed to this version of radar, but love how other things have modified the game.

That is pure speculation. If they really were that worried about online radar being used they would have prevented the Soldier Classlabel from using the radar ODF property by making appropriate changes to the EXE.

Quote from: «ΙΞ¢KØ» on October 04, 2012, 07:17:25 AM

I really enjoy the modded servers, and that is because everyone gets the same advantage. Could you not figure out a way to put the MM on a FC server, so that everyone on that particular server got that advantage. I would then praise the MM for changing up the game and making it more interesting, and would ask for more servers like it. I could go to dif servers depending on the game type I felt like playing, but always have the familiar swbf to fall back on. With all the great mods youve developed, I think you guys could find a way.

It is up to the client to use radar since it is a client-sided mod. The only way to force enable it for all clients in a server is for them to download a certain mod like side mod or AddOn. Since most of our server are for the public, this is not very feasible and we expect anyone who wants to use radar in FC servers to already have it or know how to create it. It's one of the easiest mods out there to make.

But on a side note I'll mention, when Alien Wars Era is complete, everyone who uses it will have radar.

Quote from: {212} Nixo on October 04, 2012, 09:31:48 AM
@Phobos, there isnt a clear tutorial you have to be pretty good at modding to do it by finding the right tutorials that will give you snipits of information then piece it together as far as i can see???

There is a sticky thread here which briefly and simply explains the codes used for radar mod and how they are applied. It isn't titled "how to make radar" but you will know it when you see it.

I really doubt the game community is going to be affected if a few players quit because they are upset about radar. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Quote from: sirpimped on October 04, 2012, 08:30:58 AM
Well it depends on your definition of skill. Is it the quantity of kills? Is it the quality of kills (headshots, air kills, etc.)? Is it being able to beat players 1 v 1? Is it being able to kill multiple enemies at once? Is it being able to survive (have less deaths)? Is it the ability to take cps? Is it the ability to hold cps?

Maybe it's all of them, maybe it's some of them, and maybe it's none of them. Honestly, I don't know. It's a matter of opinion I suppose. Maybe a crosshair can make me a better player so that I can do all of those things better, but maybe it can't. Should I not try and never know? I asked myself all these question before. Honestly I still haven't come up with definitive answers.

Some food for thought.  I think this is relevant.

Because a comparison to [anabolic] steroids was made. (http://imgur.com/1b2FQ)

(The comparison was made by Joseph, I believe, who noted that unlike Major League Baseball's efforts to fight the use of Performance Enhancing Drugs, testing for radar modifications would represent a unduly prohibitive burden.)

So, let's think of it this way: among other things, anabolic steroids allow people to lift heavier weights than they could otherwise.  But, what is the mechanism for this?  Do they increase your genetic potential by artificially raising your ceiling?  Or do they merely extend the period of linear gains (or, alternatively, delay the plateau)?

Anyways, with regards to radar (the mechanism of how steroids increase performance isn't important to this topic), it's clear that good players with radar tend to be good players without it.  Are they as good as they are with it as they are without it?  I suppose that would vary with the individual players, because I'm sure there are some who are and some who aren't.  I don't think there's any way to determine the effect of radar on ability without introducing significant entropy[FN1].  With that said, if there were, I'd be on the look for players who use radar to still be good, but to regress to the mean (of people who use radar but go without, if that makes sense).

Although I don't think there's an experiment to determine the effects of radar (if we can think of one, let's get on it and, as much as this thread has proven to be funny, we can end--or at least reduce--all this squabbling!), arranging a formula to determine effectiveness of a given player wouldn't seem to be prohibitively difficult (but calculating it would be slightly more difficult, due to constraints in the games mechanics).

[FN1]: One such idea would be to take a given player using the radar modification and have that player compete against a number to be determined later of other players (using radar? not using radar?) and then have that same player do the same thing (the other players would not change their radar from the previous trial) and then compare.  But where's the replication?  And all we have is data on one map, so that's not the greatest proof of all time. 

Quote from: sirpimped on October 04, 2012, 08:30:58 AM
Well it depends on your definition of skill. Is it the quantity of kills? Is it the quality of kills (headshots, air kills, etc.)? Is it being able to beat players 1 v 1? Is it being able to kill multiple enemies at once? Is it being able to survive (have less deaths)? Is it the ability to take cps? Is it the ability to hold cps?

Maybe it's all of them, maybe it's some of them, and maybe it's none of them. Honestly, I don't know. It's a matter of opinion I suppose. Maybe a crosshair can make me a better player so that I can do all of those things better, but maybe it can't. Should I not try and never know? I asked myself all these question before. Honestly I still haven't come up with definitive answers.

Some of these questions you might have better lucking finding answers for if you start experimenting with mods. I say this because instead of one point of reference (default game files), you would have multiple points of reference to look at these questions from. For each crosshair there is basically unlimited potential for variation, you can customize them in almost any way imaginable (the shape and design of them, maybe not other characteristics such as the colors they change to depending on what you are aiming at). Almost everyone has a different answer for what "skill" means to them, so the best way to find out if mods enhance your own skill - however you choose to define skill - is through experimentation.

Isn't this whole topic just to collect people's opinions? Then why are you continuing this arguement, which is just gonna sway opinions? Are you collecting or gathering them to your side?

Quote from: ★SuRg3★(was-SoulReaper) on October 04, 2012, 11:27:46 AM
Isn't this whole topic just to collect people's opinions? Then why are you continuing this arguement, which is just gonna sway opinions? Are you collecting or gathering them to your side?

The original purpose of the thread was outlined in the first post. However, people have brought up other related issues and concerns since then to which there is currently an ongoing discussion. It's not about collecting, swaying, or gathering; although those things tend to happen in polarized topics such as these. It's about voting for what you believe in and explaining why you made that choice. I explain things how I see them, and others explain things how they see them. That is what threads are for.

Quote from: BlackScorpion on October 04, 2012, 10:14:06 AM
Some food for thought.  I think this is relevant.

Because a comparison to [anabolic] steroids was made. (http://imgur.com/1b2FQ)

(The comparison was made by Joseph, I believe, who noted that unlike Major League Baseball's efforts to fight the use of Performance Enhancing Drugs, testing for radar modifications would represent a unduly prohibitive burden.)

So, let's think of it this way: among other things, anabolic steroids allow people to lift heavier weights than they could otherwise.  But, what is the mechanism for this?  Do they increase your genetic potential by artificially raising your ceiling?  Or do they merely extend the period of linear gains (or, alternatively, delay the plateau)?

I see the connection made between radar and steroids. However, steroids are banned for the potential consequences they have on one's health. Let's think of sports that have shown to have modifications to help improve the game. In football, the gloves they use now make it much easier for the ball to stick to your hand than if you play without that glove, basically making you a better receiver. Sure you have to be good enough without it, but for many people wearing the glove increases their ability to make a reception. In hockey, the sticks are no longer made of wood; they are made of composite materials that allow you to shoot the puck harder and faster than ever before. In almost all sports, specific shoes are made to allow a person run fast, jump higher, etc. Aren't these just comparable to mods? In all cases technology has advanced to change each of these sports much like mods, I suppose.

Quote from: {PLA}gdh92 on October 04, 2012, 09:59:15 AM
To me a good player is someone who enjoys the game and helps others to enjoy it aswell. Kills have nothing to to do with it. Points are just a combination of reaction time, strategy and hardware (including ping) which I do have some respect for but would rather play alongside/be someone who plays mostly for fun.

What if someone enjoys the game by getting kills? Everyone plays the game because they enjoy it in some way, shape or form. "To each, his own" I say. If I am good at something does that mean I cannot enjoy it?

Let me put it this way. If the level of my "skill" = level of my "enjoyment", wouldn't I always try to increase my skill to, in turn, increase my enjoyment? Just because I enjoy that part of the game the most, doesn't mean my way of enjoyment is any less than anyone else's who play this game for other reasons (People, friends, aesthetics, etc.). It's not fair to say kills have nothing to do with skill and that anyone who plays the game for kills is wrong for enjoying it for that reason. I do play this game for fun. The way I have the most fun is by doing the things in the list I talked about previous to this.

Again this is my opinion, so take it for what it is worth. Everyone has their own opinion. But hey, sometimes I just like to argue for the sake of argument (I should probably switch my major to Law).

Sorry I didn't mean that getting high scores was a bad way of playing just that it's still possible to enjoy the game when getting a bad score. I agree completly with 'to each, his own' and think as long as it doesn't affect others players should play how they choose from aiming for zero deaths to jumping off the tallest building. ;)

To continue the sporting comparisons it depends if you view battlefront as the 100m where it's all about the runner or Formula 1 where equipment and upgrades are as important as the driver.

Quote from: sirpimped on October 04, 2012, 08:30:58 AM
Well it depends on your definition of skill. Is it the quantity of kills? Is it the quality of kills (headshots, air kills, etc.)? Is it being able to beat players 1 v 1? Is it being able to kill multiple enemies at once? Is it being able to survive (have less deaths)? Is it the ability to take cps? Is it the ability to hold cps?

Maybe it's all of them, maybe it's some of them, and maybe it's none of them. Honestly, I don't know. It's a matter of opinion I suppose. Maybe a crosshair can make me a better player so that I can do all of those things better, but maybe it can't. Should I not try and never know? I asked myself all these question before. Honestly I still haven't come up with definitive answers.

someone should start a new thread on this

Quote from: sirpimped on October 04, 2012, 11:40:38 AM
I see the connection made between radar and steroids. However, steroids are banned for the potential consequences they have on one's health. Let's think of sports that have shown to have modifications to help improve the game. In football, the gloves they use now make it much easier for the ball to stick to your hand than if you play without that glove, basically making you a better receiver. Sure you have to be good enough without it, but for many people wearing the glove increases their ability to make a reception. In hockey, the sticks are no longer made of wood; they are made of composite materials that allow you to shoot the puck harder and faster than ever before. In almost all sports, specific shoes are made to allow a person run fast, jump higher, etc. Aren't these just comparable to mods? In all cases technology has advanced to change each of these sports much like mods, I suppose.

What if someone enjoys the game by getting kills? Everyone plays the game because they enjoy it in some way, shape or form. "To each, his own" I say. If I am good at something does that mean I cannot enjoy it?

Let me put it this way. If the level of my "skill" = level of my "enjoyment", wouldn't I always try to increase my skill to, in turn, increase my enjoyment? Just because I enjoy that part of the game the most, doesn't mean my way of enjoyment is any less than anyone else's who play this game for other reasons (People, friends, aesthetics, etc.). It's not fair to say kills have nothing to do with skill and that anyone who plays the game for kills is wrong for enjoying it for that reason. I do play this game for fun. The way I have the most fun is by doing the things in the list I talked about previous to this.

Again this is my opinion, so take it for what it is worth. Everyone has their own opinion. But hey, sometimes I just like to argue for the sake of argument (I should probably switch my major to Law).

A couple of issues here:  First, every hockey player knows they can get a composite stick.  Not every SWBF player knows about radar.

Second, your further enjoyment of the game by using radar could come at the expense of the enjoyment of someone else's that does not use radar, or even does not know it exists.  I can relate my own experience of "hiding" trying to sneak up on an enemy, only to be met with a shot gun blast to the face, on a few occasions.

I also know full well that making a rule does not stop anyone from doing anything on a server.  A rule against radar would be futile.  I can not prove that anyone uses it, and I can not stop it from being used.  Don't mistake a lack of being able to deal with the issue for endorsement.

Quote from: Buckler on October 04, 2012, 01:50:51 PM
Second, your further enjoyment of the game by using radar could come at the expense of the enjoyment of someone else's that does not use radar, or even does not know it exists.  I can relate my own experience of "hiding" trying to sneak up on an enemy, only to be met with a shot gun blast to the face, on a few occasions.

I also know full well that making a rule does not stop anyone from doing anything on a server.  A rule against radar would be futile.  I can not prove that anyone uses it, and I can not stop it from being used.  Don't mistake a lack of being able to deal with the issue for endorsement.

Your point is valid, although I do not think players who mod the game should have to, or be expected to limit the advantages they have just because some players choose not to mod, and therefore are unaware of certain mods and/or advantages. Flanking is sometimes the only effective strategy left to use in some rounds when the opposite team is dominating (especially if it's the jet team as usual). I think though that server sided mods could make up for any imbalances far more than expecting all players to conform to a certain etiquette by refraining from use of advantageous mods.

You have mentioned that if radar could be disabled for clients,  you could then enforce the no radar policy in specific servers with some as-of-yet undiscovered server sided mod or EXE alteration. If this was the case, I would be fine with playing in those type of servers without radar, since I would know for certain nobody else could use it. The main reason I use it in PLA is because 90% of the time there is at least 1-3 other people in the server using it.

o.k. first to define some terms which seem to be misused a bit
a hack is something that the program was never intended to do for example a text editor being able to edit HTML or in a game a infantryman being able to walk through walls, or even the ability for non jet type units to do a high jump/fly.
a mod (non hack) would be enabling or changing something in game that is contained in original program i.e. using a higher than 10 mouse sensitivity, turning on mini map to always show enemies, or even loading custom avatar's.
a true wall hack enables a player to see and shoot through walls however i wont touch this subject any further
a cheat is something to give someone a unfair advantage.
so radar a cheat? maybe
radar a hack? nope
far as what sleep killer said on auto aim, if you use the native auto aim then no it is not a hack( can be disabled through no aim though :cheer:) if you make a auto aim to work in game via code caves(most likely the way you are thinking of) it is now dealing with new code therefore is a hack.
my opinion on this subject is yes as long as host permits so.
a hack is a modification, though a mod is not always a hack. would be the correct statement and i apologize if i have made anyone offended

Quote from: pdenton on October 04, 2012, 05:11:03 PM
o.k. first to define some terms which seem to be misused a bit
a hack is something that the program was never intended to do for example a text editor being able to edit HTML or in a game a infantryman being able to walk through walls, or even the ability for non jet type units to do a high jump/fly.
a mod (non hack) would be enabling or changing something in game that is contained in original program i.e. using a higher than 10 mouse sensitivity, turning on mini map to always show enemies, or even loading custom avatar's.
a true wall hack enables a player to see and shoot through walls however i wont touch this subject any further
a cheat is something to give someone a unfair advantage.
so radar a cheat? maybe
radar a hack? nope
far as what sleep killer said on auto aim, if you use the native auto aim then no it is not a hack( can be disabled through no aim though :cheer:) if you make a auto aim to work in game via code caves(most likely the way you are thinking of) it is now dealing with new code therefore is a hack.
my opinion on this subject is yes as long as host permits so.
a hack is a modification, though a mod is not always a hack. would be the correct statement and i apologize if i have made anyone offended

I don't see how radar can be called unfair. What is so unfair about learning how to mod and use an advantage available to anyone willing to put in even a minimal effort? Radar would be a cheat IF only certain people could use it. That is not the case though since it is an optional mod. A modification is change to LVL files, no changes to LVL files can be considered a hack. Only things which change memory of the exe code are hacks. I disagree with the statement that a hack is a modification because they are completely different methods used to alter completely different types of files.

There are some valid points here and some not so much, if the server host says that it is aloud there shouldn't be an arguement about it period. But it does give an unfair advantage because if you are in a server with 3-7 people killing would be easier, thus knowing where your opponent(s) are. To end the discussion it should be aloud to be used as it is here on this very forum. The only problem is, is that your are the one to locate this thread.

Quote from: 501st Commander Sharpshot on October 04, 2012, 06:43:20 PM
To end the discussion it should be aloud to be used as it is here on this very forum. The only problem is, is that your are the one to locate this thread.

There are all kinds of things that you can learn on this forum.  It is what you do with those things that are important.  Having and sharing knowledge of any particular aspect of SWBF does not imply endorsement.

Quote from: Buckler on October 04, 2012, 07:06:47 PM
There are all kinds of things that you can learn on this forum.  It is what you do with those things that are important.  Having and sharing knowledge of any particular aspect of SWBF does not imply endorsement.

Well said Buckler :)

@Phobos, you do realise that the minimap hack by battlebelk is a modded exe with just two changed values? you can do that with hex-editing in one minute.

@Phobos

Mods = Changes to any files within the AddOn and _LVL_PC folders (primarily LVL files)
Hacks = Changes to the executable (battlefront.EXE)

...false..

A Wallhack is simply done with editing the meshes and the .tga files of (for example) walls...
You have nothing to edit in bf.exe and .. yes its a hack.

Wallhack = Hack

And Minimap (or Radar) is editing the bf.exe.. and thats a hack, too  ;)

But np

Quote from: Scarecrow on October 05, 2012, 09:58:57 AM
@Phobos

Mods = Changes to any files within the AddOn and _LVL_PC folders (primarily LVL files)
Hacks = Changes to the executable (battlefront.EXE)

...false..

A Wallhack is simply done with editing the meshes and the .tga files of (for example) walls...
You have nothing to edit in bf.exe and .. yes its a hack.

Wallhack = Hack

And Minimap (or Radar) is editing the bf.exe.. and thats a hack, too  ;)

But np

Um no, what I posted is not false, it is true. Mods change LVL files in the _LVL_PC/ADDON, and Hacks alter the EXE/DLL files. Radar is NOT an EXE edit, its a side LVL edit. You can't "wallhack" by editing msh/tga files either. A wallhack is only possible by hacking the game memory. Quit spreading disinfo.

I'll clarify:
Seeing through walls is a MOD done by editing msh/tga
Walking through walls is a HACK done with cheat engine or other program

Quote from: DEAGLE on October 05, 2012, 09:13:06 AM
@Phobos, you do realise that the minimap hack by battlebelk is a modded exe with just two changed values? you can do that with hex-editing in one minute.

You do realize I've never heard of such a thing? The only radar I've ever used is a side mod, never heard of "battlebelks minimap hack"

Haha, you're wrong, here is my little Wallhack-Video of MosEisley Cantina. And its edit of Meshes and Tga files ;)

YouTube_Link
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx_nFqtp7e0&feature=youtu.be)

Seeing through walls is a MOD done by editing msh/tga
Walking through walls is a HACK done with cheat engine or other program

No, seeing through walls is a Wallhack, too

Quote from: Scarecrow on October 05, 2012, 10:57:02 AM
Haha, you're wrong, here is my little Wallhack-Video of MosEisley Cantina. And its edit of Meshes and Tga files ;)

YouTube_Link
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx_nFqtp7e0&feature=youtu.be)

Seeing through walls is a MOD done by editing msh/tga
Walking through walls is a HACK done with cheat engine or other program

No, seeing through walls is a Wallhack, too

Again you are wrong and spreading disinfo. Editing the MSH/Tga files to let you see through walls is a mod, not a 'wallhack'. A wallhack is when the exe is altered to let you walk through walls. All your video is showing is a mod you aren't walking through any walls. You are just trying to make a sad excuse to call CCSC a hack. Only a fool would believe that hex editing MSH files or changing TGAs in gimp = hacking.

Haha, you're funny.
Its not possible to walk through walls in bf, cuz the collision area of the walls is set by the server. You have to hack a server for that... And a simple Wallhack IS(!) seeing through walls ;)

Quote from: 21 | Reacter on October 05, 2012, 11:13:22 AM
Haha, you're funny.
Its not possible to walk through walls in bf, cuz the collision area of the walls is set by the server. You have to hack a server for that... And a simple Wallhack IS(!) seeing through walls ;)

Wrong, wrong, wrong.
It is possible to walk through walls in SWBF1.
It is done using a client hack not server hack (but you do have to be hosting PC server it isn't going to work in Dedicated).
And seeing through walls is not a wall hack its a wall mod (specifically a texture reskin and model hex edit neither of which are ever considered hacks).

Do I need to take a video to prove everything I have just stated is correct? You don't know what you're talking about that has been made crystal clear.

Whats next you saying editing crosshair TGAs in gimp is a hack? Or is all of this just you trying to derail the thread by disagreeing with every single statement I make :wacko:

Regardless if his video is a "mod or hack", I cant see how a single person would call that fair game play. His video simply shows a cheat.

Seeing through walls like that is essentially the same thing as using dumbdar. Its a cheat.

Dude

Whether its the edited exe by belk or changes in the side level, it's the same effect! Why would you call one mod and the other hack if both have the same effects to the game? Sorry, but thats just completely dumb.
And in what fps is a wallhack walking through walls? By just searching for "wallhack" in youtube you get thousands of vids from different games: and they all have transparent object models or skins shining through walls. Probably just the metin2 thing on the first page is really walking through walls, but thats not a fps.

Quote from: Jamman on October 05, 2012, 03:32:34 PM
Regardless if his video is a "mod or hack", I cant see how a single person would call that fair game play. His video simply shows a cheat.

Seeing through walls like that is essentially the same thing as using dumbdar. Its a cheat.

Something is only a cheat when the server host declares it is. If server host allows specific mods and/or hacks, then it is not cheat.

Quote from: DEAGLE on October 05, 2012, 03:35:23 PM
Dude

Whether its the edited exe by belk or changes in the side level, it's the same effect! Why would you call one mod and the other hack if both have the same effects to the game? Sorry, but thats just completely dumb.
And in what fps is a wallhack walking through walls? By just searching for "wallhack" in youtube you get thousands of vids from different games: and they all have transparent object models or skins shining through walls. Probably just the metin2 thing on the first page is really walking through walls, but thats not a fps.

If there is some kind of EXE hack for radar, that still would classify it as hack - whereas the side.lvl radar mod is classified as a mod. I would call them by what they are and if multiple forms of radar existed then it would be inaccurate to confuse the two separate methodologies.

The hacks in the videos for other games very often use hacking programs (such as cheat engine) to swap out the textures for transparency, which is not the same thing as modding the msh/TGA files. In that case they are "hacking" the wall textures and you can call it a wallhack but its not the same thing as noclip which is ALWAYS a wallhack.

It is probably true that mods and hacks can sometimes achieve the same function but they are always done through very different processes. Modding is altering the game data's storage files which for swbf happens to be LVL and munged components.

Then I don't understand why you think it's okay to use radar hack. Because earlier you mentioned that all edited/modded exe files are hacks. And radar hack is an exe, even though it's possible to do the exact same thing with side levels. Wouldn't it make it a hack then?
Also, because of that example, you see how ignorant it is to call all edited lvl files mods and all edited exe hacks. Because lvl files can also be used as hacks.

And seriously, it's the same thing with wallhacks. It's completely irrelevant if it's by hacking transparency with cheat engine or modding it if it's the same effect. A fair player gives a  :censored: whether it's injected, hacked or modded.

edit by buckler:  no cursing here please

Quote from: DEAGLE on October 05, 2012, 05:52:01 PM
Then I don't understand why you think it's okay to use radar hack. Because earlier you mentioned that all edited/modded exe files are hacks. And radar hack is an exe, even though it's possible to do the exact same thing with side levels. Wouldn't it make it a hack then?
Also, because of that example, you see how ignorant it is to call all edited lvl files mods and all edited exe hacks. Because lvl files can also be used as hacks.

And seriously, it's the same thing with wallhacks. It's completely irrelevant if it's by hacking transparency with cheat engine or modding it if it's the same effect. A fair player gives a  :censored: whether it's injected, hacked or modded.

edit by buckler:  no cursing here please

I never stated anything about radar hack being acceptable. I am explicitly talking about the radar mod which I do accept as fair. Whatever form of radar you claim battlebelk used is not what I'm using. So you are talking about something other than what I am. It is not ignorant to call LVL files mods because they are. You cannot 'hack' LVL files quit pretending its possible because it isn't. Unless you can prove it, show me what memory edits you can maek to LVL files with cheat engine then I'll believe you. Its very ignorant to say the difference between hacks and mods dont matter because for one reason, hacks are EULA infringing whereas mods are not.

It is entirely relevent what process the person is using. If they are modding, it is acceptable in my view. hacking not so much, and the difference does matter. A fair player accepts what rules the server host lays out and does not try to force clients to play otherwise.

Lol Phobos, use common sense. Does having Radar and others not having it sound fair to you? Only people who need to improve very, very much need it seems like it ;)

Quote from: {212}Mart on October 05, 2012, 06:36:01 PM
Lol Phobos, use common sense. Does having Radar and others not having it sound fair to you? Only people who need to improve very, very much need it seems like it ;)

It does sound fair to me since the ones who don't have it didn't bother to look into how to enable it. Anyone who wants radar can find it here or in the modding tools and enable it. It's a choice each player makes how they want to play the game

Do you really want every single player to have radar?   Some of us perfer to play fair, not have advantages over others, there are still people who want to know who are the best players, not the best cheat makers.

Quote from: {212}Mart on October 05, 2012, 06:56:08 PM
Do you really want every single player to have radar?   Some of us perfer to play fair, not have advantages over others, there are still people who want to know who are the best players, not the best cheat makers.

I don't want or care if every player does or doesn't have radar. I want people to start respecting rules of the server host more rather than imposing their views on other players about how they perceive radar. Some of us recognize that advantages anyone can use are indeed fair game. We also recognize that other people want to make excuses and accuse skilled players of 'cheating' just because they use advantages which the server host has deemed fair. Those people try to make up any rules they want - regardless of what the host has said is allowed -  in order to label someone else a cheater.

Lol okay make more excuses so people can cheat in peace. By the way, 212 servers forbid Radar, just so you know ;)

I think if radar WAS avaIlable to the public there wouldn't be a topic like this... I'm not saying post a link here... I don't need such a mod, but if the people fighting about this mod most likely don't have the mod!!!

Quote from: {212}Mart on October 05, 2012, 07:11:18 PM
Lol okay make more excuses so people can cheat in peace. By the way, 212 servers forbid Radar, just so you know ;)

It's only cheating in your servers or servers where the host agrees with you. And that isn't the case for PLA or most servers in this game, just so you know ;)

I don't play in 212 servers anyway, so have fun with that.

Quote from: 501st Commander Sharpshot on October 05, 2012, 07:12:05 PM
I think if radar WAS avaIlable to the public there wouldn't be a topic like this... I'm not saying post a link here... I don't need such a mod, but if the people fighting about this mod most likely don't have the mod!!!

It is right here. Public knowledge for everyone
http://www.swbfgamers.com/index.php?topic=4487.0

Haha, if I wanted it I could get it. But nah man I perfer to play fair, why do we have to get radar and be forced to play their type of dull play, why can't they degrade and play on the fair level.

Quote from: {212}Mart on October 05, 2012, 07:18:09 PM
Haha, if I wanted it I could get it. But nah man I perfer to play fair, why do we have to get radar and be forced to play their type of dull play, why can't they degrade and play on the fair level.

Radar is fair for everyone who has it. If you think its unfair in a certain server, talk to the host since their opinion trumps yours (and mine). Nothing more dull than flanking, running, hiding, etc. Radar brings the action right up front just how SirPimped and most other pros prefer to play

Nobody said "you had to get radar". The only thing I said about forced radar is that for alien wars era, it will be enabled for every player. You don't have to download the mod if you don't want to nobody is forcing you.

Because they own a copy of the game... They can do whatever they want with it and they don't have to play a certain servers.

Anybody who host's swbf servers and does not allow radar please post here so they can't use it in your servers! Lol, im sure Phobos will respect your decision :rofl:       and you are forcing people to get because if we want to be as "good" as you guys we have to have radar.

Again with provoking people huh Mart... Just get it through your head that Radar is a MOD! A mod that takes the same format of a crosshair mod... A crosshair usually Allows you to have better Aim right, well radar allows you to see where your opponent is.

Quote from: {212}Mart on October 05, 2012, 07:24:16 PM
Anybody who host's swbf servers and does not allow radar please post here so they can't use it in your servers! Lol, im sure Phobos will respect your decision :rofl:       and you are forcing people to get because if we want to be as "good" as you guys we have to have radar.

I'm not forcing anyone to get radar, and your reason for thinking so is invalid since a player can be more skilled without radar than another player who has radar.

I'm one of the 'indifferent' votes.
This is one reason I really dig the PS2 version.
Not because another player might 'has the hax', but because it forces you to mind your position.
Radar or not, if you aren't ready when you pounce out of the shadows, you will eat a rocket.
If other folks having radar is making you lose, then you have training to attend to.

-edit
no change to the above, just wanted to add that I am not a very good player, but I am also not intimidated by the idea that someone could see me through a wall. (it is a sci-fi game, after all.)

If someone wants to use mods to thier advantage (and/or my disadvantage) it's ok, I don't get to control other people anymore than they get to control me.

(btw, lovely rant thread :P )

Whether or not you use client-sided mods it an inherently personal decision. The majority of (extant) radar users in this game have not posted in this thread thereby making themselves public targets, and the overwhelming majority of (total) radar users will never even see it. If you don't like it, what can you realistically do besides hand-waving? You have chosen to villanize something which is completely out of your control.

Anti-radar folks: where and why do you draw the line? If you maintain that radar is "cheating", are skin mods cheating? Crosshairs? I realize that I've asked this before but people never fail to dodge the issue. Are you at least cognizant of the slippery slope you are standing on?

(In the RepCom world, client-sided modding is not treated in such a superstitious way. Invariably among the best players in the game you see that many/most of them use a mod called, incidentally, the Phobos Client Side Mod 2.0. (Anyone using this mod makes an automatic announcement of this fact upon joining a server). What does this mod do? Among other things it enables one to see through mesh walls, drastically changes the skin of every map in order to better illuminate enemy players, and makes players' heads bright red to assist headshots. I have never seen anyone at any skill level complain about or criticize this mod. Whatever.)

Quote from: 501st Commander Sharpshot on October 05, 2012, 07:12:05 PM
I think if radar WAS avaIlable to the public there wouldn't be a topic like this... I'm not saying post a link here... I don't need such a mod, but if the people fighting about this mod most likely don't have the mod!!!

Absolutely, there is no need to be hush-hush about this matter and I would like to again endorse making the mod even more available than it already is.

Quote from: Joseph on October 05, 2012, 09:54:08 PM
Anti-radar folks: where and why do you draw the line? If you maintain that radar is "cheating", are skin mods cheating? Crosshairs? I realize that I've asked this before but people never fail to dodge the issue. Are you at least cognizant of the slippery slope you are standing on?

I consider crosshairs to be cheating, notice that I have never actually released a crosshair mod. And the few I have made I don't use online. Skin mods can be used to cheat, making units stick out more, mines sticking out more, etc. I always make sure that any mod I make and then release can't be used to gain an advantage against other players in MP. I have stated this on several occasions and never try to dodge the issue.

Modding in my mind should be to add new content to the game or to update something in the game. Never to gain an advantage against other players in multiplayer.

Quote from: SleepKiller on October 05, 2012, 10:13:33 PM
I consider crosshairs to be cheating,

funny post wow man :rofl:

Phobos, I don't understand your logic. How is it fair to use radar-lvl-files but it's not fair to use the hex edited exe radar? Both have the exact same effect on the game.

And your statement that it's fair because everyone could get the radar if he wants: I can only refer to any other fps again, there are thousands of hacks for those and everyone can download and use them. But they get banned anyway, because it's an advantage over players who play with original game files.
Believe me, radar hacks are the most common in professional gaming.

To make it once more clear to you, theres no program injecting to the exe or in any other way overwriting memory regions in the process. It's just two changed values via hexediting. You know, like
AlwaysShowEnemies = 1
Nothing more then any other odf mods.

I'm honestly really shocked how intense you try to make using radar a fair game experience.


@Joseph, I can only quote myself: "I also don't care about crosshairs, skins whatever, because those advantages are minimal (I for myself play better without any changes). MM on the other side is, like ΙΞ¢KØ already said, over powered. You just don't stand a chance against a player on your skill level if he's using radar hack.
If someone would release a wallhack, would you support that aswell? Because it's working just the same as radar hack does."

If it were possible, I would make a server mod that would allow radar for everyone.

Then, we could alternate play on that server and the server where minimap radar hack/mod/whatever you want to call it is not allowed.

Also how many of the people that have radar have made it themselves???? Habi for one didnt make it and he admited that.

Ok, I really think this thread has run its course.  It has been a really good discussion and I am glad that everyone got a chance to share their views.  I will lock this thread before the weekend is over.

:cheers:

Perhaps the best, so heres my last advice for radar users: Please just stop it and try playing normal again. I for myself cheated a long time and now that I quit it about one year ago I realise how much more fun it is to play fair.
Think of all the other players who don't have the knowledge to mod/download/use it themself.

Quote from: DEAGLE on October 06, 2012, 09:22:52 AM
Think of all the other players who don't have the knowledge to mod/download/use it themself.

Yes, during the few times I play online ( DC or GR ) I use no mods or skins and also I wouldn't be able to use those "hacks" anyway! And it ultimately comes to that. There are people who don't d/l mods or maps, they just play the game. I also think like what Deagle said, they have more fun than those with mods/hack whatever you wanna call it.
Now that this discussion is over, let's just all play SWBF...

@Deagle
It's fair to use LVL modded radar since the knowledge is public and anyone can use it. Radar as an advantage in this game is different than other games since in this game the server host gets to decide whether its a cheat or not, and is the only one with rights to ban players for using radar. I'm really not shocked that publicly you are against radar (although we know you used it in Invis vs UEF war) seeing how you are unable to distinguish between fair and unfair. If someone released a wallhack where you could walk through walls, I would be against it if it worked online in any server. Otherwise, I would be neutral towards it. Something that changes the walls is not the same thing as something that changes minimap. I can be opposed to one but not the other if I choose.

I won't use radar in servers where its cheating: where the host says so. In servers the host doesn't care, it isn't cheating, so I will use it if I decide to. Once again I see no reason to use ignorance on behalf of others as a justification to limit how I play swbf.

@Buckler
I see this thread has also gotten more replies than the other radar thread so it makes sense to lock it. Others are trying to derail it anyway, and its quite obvious that about half the player base here is against radar so I guess I'll say to those ppl: enjoy playing the game with no extra advantages and convincing yourself that anyone who uses them is a cheater. Other half of the player base isn't going to complain so I'm glad there's that at least.

To everyone:
Thanks for voting and sharing your views in the limited window during which discussion on the subject was available. Seeing how the poll will no longer be able to measure statistics after its 'lock', I have closed down the vote system for it. If you have further questions about radar contact me on xfire or PM.

Well before its locked,

Thank you Rage for using this cheat and thank you losers who use it too. I'm sure that some people do not say things against Rage because when they do, there is a 95% chance that any screenshots and/or videos over xfire will be flamed by this man with vulgar language, or they don't because they try not to give the finger to people, and just your name makes me use it.

I wish I could derail a train on you Rage. But odds are, you would see it coming because of your dumbdar. I gave the finger to your " Pro dumbdar community" on xfire, in the long run all the dumbdar users are just attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis.

(https://www.swbfgamers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg525.imageshack.us%2Fimg525%2F4067%2Finb4lock.gif&hash=33d1935fceac1b57a94dfdb2507ca856afea158a)

Well we've certainly seen some of our members' true colours in this thread.

My final thought;

Radar is a thing that divides opinion, and that's just the nature of things and stuff.

Quote from: Jamman on October 06, 2012, 11:59:11 AM
Well before its locked,

Thank you Rage for using this cheat and thank you losers who use it too. I'm sure that some people do not say things against Rage because when they do, there is a 95% chance that any screenshots and/or videos over xfire will be flamed by this man with vulgar language, or they don't because they try not to give the finger to people, and just your name makes me use it.

I wish I could derail a train on you Rage. But odds are, you would see it coming because of your dumbdar. I gave the finger to your " Pro dumbdar community" on xfire, in the long run all the dumbdar users are just attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis.

Thank you for being stupid enough to call something a cheat when the server host say it isn't. The only one flaming is you and the other haters. Enjoy being a hater thats all you can do is hate you have no respect for this game or the amazing mods for it. Maybe you should find another game to troll.

Alright that's enough If you want to use it, go ahead and have an advantage that some people may see as unfair. If you don't want to use it, then no one's gonna force you to use it. The amount of anger concerning a feature of an almost 9-year old video game is concerning. Just be easy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDhdOOBbFo8)

(https://www.swbfgamers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi48.servimg.com%2Fu%2Ff48%2F16%2F38%2F01%2F60%2Flocked10.jpg&hash=d45bd82aba4798299403bb9ddda822761ba71a92)