Week 4 Fiasco

[Oven]

Here's my problem:

There's 16 pages in the Week 4 thread, and I've read 4 of them.
There's over 20 new messages in my inbox, and I've skimmed them at best.
Most of my "advisors" are not on xfire at this time.
IRL, I'm fairly busy right now.

So this is what happens in this thread:

Anyone who wants to is allowed to make one post that

--explains in their words what went wrong last week
--who is to blame
--pre-emptively deflect any accusations, to make new accusations
--tell what they think should be done about it
--in general to tell me their side of the story.

You can only make one post so make it count. If you are outraged about someone else's post, and you already posted, send a PM.

You have 24 hours to make your post. I'll be on xfire for the next 2 or so hours, and sporadically later.

The Week 5 thread can/will not appear until this mess has been cleaned up.

You have to assume I know nothing at this point, because essentially, I don't. So if you guys fail to tell me some detail, then you may be unhappy with the resulting decision -- tough luck.

[Dark_Phantom]

Post #1.  Courtesy of Phantom.  I know that this will be rebutted very quickly, but someone needs to start this off.

I believe Majesty should be banned from the ICW3 for blatantly disobeying rules which he/she was clearly warned about many times in servers, repeatedly saying "idc" or something like that, and continuing.  Poor sportsmanship is not on my list of top things to endorse.

The issue currently in question is whether clans that were previously in ICW3 are allowed to join other clans.  The players that were listed as mercs, most of them had their clans knocked out.  If those players are allowed to join other clans, then the merc rule was followed.  If not, then the battle at Russia was lost.
Members under question:
(Phobos Post)
- Killfire - merc
- Erweitert - A UEF who joined 1.0
- Anyder - A UEF who joined 1.0
- Wusi Wild - A WUSI, most WUSI members left joined 1.0 for ICW
- Nico - Nico is a member, confirmed
- Troy -  A WUSI, joined 1.0
- 212 Dirty harry - merc
- FrenchFryZ - merc


- Better Off Dead - A WUSI, joined 1.0
- Engel - umm we really aren't sure how this one works.  Says not aligned with any clan, yet no merc tag


Also, most EnTen members joined 1.0 for remainder of ICW3 (Jumper, Deagle, etc.)

Quote straight from post on thread that 1.0 on Russia did not have too many mercenaries because our mercenaries were former members who declared membership with 1.0 for the remainder of ICW3 (if Oven declares it legal to do so).  Kamino was not disputed, 1.0 victory.  Eddie's Kastel will be explained by Hond, YAK won the actual battle, but there was a dispute on a glitch (the map is full of them). 212 is not my issue in this post.  Harbor is disputed with mercs now because of the list above and other things.

My opinion on the matter:  if we would have known maps would have turned into a recon fest, we would have stopped it most likely.  As it stands, the recommendations were taken for sides, and recons were not even mentioned, so I believe it shouldn't be changed.  If there is a recon spam fest, then it's the players' responsibility to turn it into something else.

In regards to the mission.lvl mod, if it is determined to be needed, I can make a new one.  But seriously, how hard is it to NOT spawn as a Jet.  If you do, leave and rejoin.  Not that hard. 

Also, if someone dies, just 1 person die on the other team.  And some of us are irritated that battles are starting half an hour late because 1 person will not show up.  Declare everyone, if someone is late, say they will be coming and add them to the official count.

Recons will be disabled for Russia, and there will be a server-sided mission.lvl mod preventing anyone from spawning as a special unit.

Enough of this, guys.  There will be a rematch next week on Harbor and Russia.  End of discussion.

It seems to me this is a little out of line.  Asserting oneself is understandable, and in this case is probably needed, but declaring an end to discussion with a decision by one person that will severely impact the rest of the participants of the ICW3 is not looked upon highly by me.  I understand Shazam was appointed 2nd in command, but when the dispute resolution directly benefits the clan that he is a part of that lost both battles, then I am leery, as I know many players are.  We wanted to wait for Oven's decision, as this is his tournament, and deserves respect for organizing this.


P.S.  I wish to commend UNIT 33 for locking the thread before we hit 30 pages.  This just ended up being ridiculous.  I hope I stated my position well and stated everything I wished to address.  Thank you for reading.  Have a nice day!

[Jamman]

I understand the rematch on Harbor. Both sides played unfair.

The suggested rematch on Russia is not needed and a waste of time. The fact of the matter is that 1.0 won the match. There was no cheating on any side. It was a normal game, but instead of face-to-face fighting, players decided to use recons. There is nothing wrong with that. It's a strategy that many people have used many times over years of playing.

If there is one thing I have learned from reading the SWBFgamers forums, it's that the majority of people demand that we play the game the way it was intended, including all features. Recons are a part of the game, and I would like to continue using that feature. In fact, a few of the people that want recons disabled for the Russian rematch are the strong supporters behind playing the game the way it was intended. I simply don't understand any of the admins reasoning for allowing them to be disabled, or a rematch at all on Russia.

Eddies map, it was a good game on a bad map. It's pretty simple. The only question there was if Pimp accidentally walked through the wall or not. I typically hug the wall, and can see the possibility of walking through very probable. So I don't think they should receive a penalty. I doubt he did it on purpose.

I recommend throwing that map away in all future tournaments. It's terrible.

If there is in fact a rematch for any of the battles this past week, and they can take place on Friday instead of Saturday, Id be more than happy to help admin them. I've been an admin in the past for ICW and can't recall any complaints.

Thanks for reading. 

[BlackScorpion]

This post is a little bit of a work in progress.  I've tried to keep it as a summary of what's happened.  Me interjecting my opinion is noted by "**."

WHAT HAPPENED:

Russia:
-Issue is raised of who is an acting member and who is a merc.
-**Consider this hypothetical: In the ICW3, there are clans A, B, and C.  Player 1 (P1) is a member of clan D, which is not in the ICW3 and so can be an acting member of clan A, B, or C.  P1 plays as an acting member of clan B vs. clan A in Week 2... can P1 be an acting member of clan C in clan C's game vs. clan A the same week?  Can P1 be an acting member of clan C in Week 3?**
-Shazam scheduled a rematch
-**The wording he used suggested that it's a tentative rematch, pending your evaluation of mercs vs. acting members.**


Kastel:
-SirPimped was recorded traveling through a wall glitch.
-Accident or intentional?
-SirPimped says he was wall hugging and walked into the wall; that is, that he entered the glitch as an accident.
-**To enter this glitch it doesn't matter where on that wall you hug, just that you hug it.  SirPimped's explanation is not inconsistent with how one would enter the glitch.**
-**This is not to say that SirPimped is innocent, just that I believe that he is not guilty, if that makes sense.  I fail to reject the null hypothesis of innocence.**

Harbor:
-(To set the stage) In the buffer, certain players used inappropriate names and Gdh had to kick several people.
-Nico, playing with 212, was a jet trooper.
-Rage alleges that a jet trooper stole a tank on the mountain
-Birdosrus alleges that the tank that was stolen was in a crevice
**Birdosrus's allegations are not inconsistent, to the extent that they do not refute Rage's allegations, with what I saw.  I'll explain: (I believe this transpired after Nico stopped using jet) I saw a tank coming from an area near what Birdosrus would later describe as a crevice.  Birdosrus, spawned as a clone pilot, drove the tank to the tank-healing bot in front of the Republic's main command post.  But that doesn't mean that Rage's allegations are false, because the tank that came from the "crevice" was not the only tank there (there was another!) so it's possible that the tank from the mountain and the tank in the crevice are different.**
-A member of YAK, I believe Rage, switched to Republic to take a tank.

WHO IS TO BLAME:

Russia:
-Me, for not being sure how to interpret the acting members.

Kastel:
-The wall?

Harbor:
-Nico for being jet, and the member of YAK who switched sides for switching sides.
-Various players for having inappropriate usernames.

DEFLECTION

I see a broad interpretation of acting members.

Allowing for acting members, Oven wrote that "clans may declare non-members to be 'acting members' for the sake of counting in the ICW3, as long as those non-members are also non-members of the other 3 participating clans" and went on to say that "[t]hese 'acting members' are counted as clan members in matches" (emphasis added).

That is, someone who is formally a member of a clan that is not participating in the ICW3, such as WUSI, can act as members for a game.  Now, I purposefully emphasized matches.  If someone is an acting president of a firm, for example, that means that they are temporarily president to fill a vacancy, keyword being temporarily.  I emphasized "in matches," because it defines--in my opinion--the temporary duration.  Namely, when the match is over, they are no longer an acting member and not covered by the restriction on members of the other 3 participating clans.

But I digress.  It's a poor argument because Oven wrote "matches" not "match," which implies that one's status as an acting member is something that will happen more than once.

WHAT SHOULD BE DONE:

Russia:
-See if it's inconsistent with the acting member rule, whatever it is, and go from there.  I think the rematch is more tentative than anything.

Kastel:
-Umm... how do we punish a wall, especially when that wall isn't really there?

Harbor:
-I think that although 212 won't like, a rematch would be an adequate remedy.
-Or, in the next week, Nico and the player of YAK that switched sides can't play
-Attacks are lost

[SirPimped]

Russia:

1.0 used too many mercs. (See pic below)

I believe that if a player participated in the ICW with a clan, they are apart of that clan and should not be able to join another clan after that clan is eliminated. Example: Anyder played as a leader of UEF. Anyder was used as a merc for 1.0 and for 212. However UEF was eliminated, he became a member (or leader) of 1.0. My question is, why would we allow players to "jump ship" as soon as their clan is eliminated, and join a clan as a member. I believe these types of players should be labeled as mercs. Obviously, 1.0 and 212 will disagree, because they want to use members from UEF and Enten (clans that forfeited or were eliminated), as well as use mercs to attack YAK. But I believe in fairness to other clans, members shouldn't be able to jump ship (or as I see it combine forces to try to be another group)

Here is my post on the merc situation in this match:

[spoiler]This is a screenshot from start of match. It has the 18 players for 1.0.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Mercs no matter how you look at it because it's in their name or they are a clan currently in or previously in ICW3.

Mercs: 9
UEF Erweitert
UEF Anyder
212 Dirty Harry
212 FrenchFry
Merc Better off dead
Merc KF
Enten Engle
Merc Troy
Enten Jumper

1.0 & WUSI & ALPHA members: 9
Wild
Anime
Super
Sammy
Menace
Civic
Jed
"family"
Nico

Basicly it comes down to Oven to decide if clans previously in the ICW3 who are out can join with a clan or have to act as mercs. I just assumed if a clan was in the ICW they had to be mercs at all times for other clans. But I don't think it was ever defined so Oven can rule on that.[/spoiler]

SIDE NOTE [spoiler]The Russia battle was a mess. Everyone stayed in their cps and it became a recon spamfest. Not one CP was taken during the game because both sides only used recons. It was the least enjoyable game I've ever played. I think they amount of recons that can be used should be reduced or eliminated for this map. I think both sides agree its no fun to just have 40 recons going from one side of the map to the other... [/spoiler]

Kastle:

As it has been shown or will be shown, I came through a wall during the battle on Kastle. I have recorded a video here[spoiler]http://www.xfire.com/videos/60ecbb[/spoiler]This video shows that anyone going to the wall to look to see if there is an enemy around the corner would go through it. Also, if I wanted to kill someone through a wall glitch why would I go through the glitch? I would stay in there and kill the person. I was just as surprised I went through the wall as Birdo. I have only played Kastle once or twice and I had no idea some of the walls were not solid.

Harbor:

This match was a mess. There are arguments about 212/1.0 (I don't remember which we were playing because they are basicly one clan now) using more mercs than allowed. Someone else can explain that. There were Clone Jet troopers used by 212/1.0 to kill Shazam before he took a command post. And there have been statements made about 212/1.0 stealing our tanks. I will leave this match to be argued by others, because it is an absolute mess.

Sorry about the mess Oven...

[Anyder]

Russia:

1st) 1.0 used too many mercs. (See pic below)

I believe that if a player participated in the ICW with a clan, they are apart of that clan and should not be able to join another clan after that clan is eliminated. Example: Anyder played as a leader of UEF. Anyder was used as a merc for 1.0 and for 212. However UEF was eliminated, he became a member (or leader) of 1.0. My question is, why would we allow players to "jump ship" as soon as their clan is eliminated, and join a clan as a member. I believe these types of players should be labeled as mercs. Obviously, 1.0 and 212 will disagree, because they want to use members from UEF and Enten (clans that forfeited or were eliminated), as well as use mercs to attack YAK. But I believe in fairness to other clans, members shouldn't be able to jump ship (or as I see it combine forces to try to be another group)

Here is my post on the merc situation in this match:

[spoiler]This is a screenshot from start of match. It has the 18 players for 1.0.

[spoiler][/spoiler]
2nd)

Mercs no matter how you look at it because it's in their name or they are a clan currently in or previously in ICW3.

Mercs: 5
212 Dirty Harry
212 FrenchFry
Merc Better off dead
Merc KF
Merc Troy

1.0 & WUSI & ALPHA members: 13
Wild
Anime
Super
Sammy
Menace
Civic
Jed
"family"
Nico
UEF Erweitert
UEF Anyder
Enten Jumper
Enten Engle

Basicly it comes down to Oven to decide if clans previously in the ICW3 who are out can join with a clan or have to act as mercs. I just assumed if a clan was in the ICW they had to be mercs at all times for other clans. But I don't think it was ever defined so Oven can rule on that.[/spoiler]

SIDE NOTE [spoiler]The Russia battle was a mess. Everyone stayed in their cps and it became a recon spamfest. Not one CP was taken during the game because both sides only used recons. It was the least enjoyable game I've ever played. I think they amount of recons that can be used should be reduced or eliminated for this map. I think both sides agree its no fun to just have 40 recons going from one side of the map to the other... [/spoiler]

Kastle:

As it has been shown or will be shown, I came through a wall during the battle on Kastle. I have recorded a video here[spoiler]http://www.xfire.com/videos/60ecbb[/spoiler]This video shows that anyone going to the wall to look to see if there is an enemy around the corner would go through it. Also, if I wanted to kill someone through a wall glitch why would I go through the glitch? I would stay in there and kill the person. I was just as surprised I went through the wall as Birdo. I have only played Kastle once or twice and I had no idea some of the walls were not solid.

Harbor:

This match was a mess. There are arguments about 212/1.0 (I don't remember which we were playing because they are basicly one clan now) using more mercs than allowed. Someone else can explain that. There were Clone Jet troopers used by 212/1.0 to kill Shazam before he took a command post. And there have been statements made about 212/1.0 stealing our tanks. I will leave this match to be argued by others, because it is an absolute mess.

1st) I thought we clearly explained who is and who not in 1.0 .
You know sir pimped, i perfectly know why u (and the whole YAK Team) is mad and ,well ... , whining.
You lost in russia and Kamino, so as we took both, u cannot attack russia again, and due this u want the rematch. And with each post YAK's are asking for a Russia rematch, ure only proving me right.
That rule u want to be done, is cause u wanna win easier vs 1.0
Pretty said, I thought Gohan liked challenger, but i guess Cell is who does
So, whats up if i have played as UEF ? U do not know UEF, so u dunno how we work
I never played as a merc of 1.0 , cause in week 1 and week 2 (until i quit uef as icw team) i ONLY played for UEF.
Go ahead and ask the leaders, members or whoever u want from 1.0 and 212
I was asked to help they, and i did NOT.
We werent eliminated, thats why what i did was quit uef, and tell in the uef forum, that  we were now 1.0

2nd) That roster is wrong, Enten and UEF played (and will play) for 1.0 .
If u wonder why enten and uef decided to quit, its easy to understand, u asked me ? why do u sign a team, if ure only 4 in a fw.
Well, i understood that u prefer big teams vs big teams (even UEF and I dont rly like that), so we retired to be part of 1.0
Now that we did this, u hate it cause now, as this is true, 1.0 is stronger than YAK (u just gotta see all complaints from before we joined - 1.0 lost matches vs YAK, so no complaints).

I am afraid i dunno know why u say Alpha (?) they aint helping 1.0 xDD
Ive corrected the real roster, for ur info.
Also idk which Troy was a real member (lol)
Ill repeat, u want oven to make that rule, cause u are now losing (as now u are 16, and we are the same (even more) u have no number of members advantage).

Why does it matter if i use the UEF Tag and 1.0 one ?
If i dont have ''merc.'' after the tag, then u know that im not a merc (AS I USED IN HARBOR WHEN I MERC. FOR 212)
3rd) So Ove, i will show u our video of SirPimped glitching on purpose (If u are in a fw and u glitch, u FAST go out, u dont camp to try to kill someone (although his aim s*cked...)


Now, its supposed my clanmates will be posting soon the truth (not was is the best for our team, like YAK is doing)
Oh also, Oven, i recommend u to read form page 11 to 16
There is the arguement of russia/harbor/kastel

[Black Water]

I was there at the Rhen ver war, this is what I witnessed:
1. One of our players, Nico, used jet at the beginning of the war, we told him to stop and he did. Phobos says a jet took their tank, but I'm not inclined to believe that, since there is no proof (Video, picture). Shazam says a jet killed him while he was taking our command post, I'm not sure how much that matters, since we had an AT-TE at the command post, that would've easily killed him either way, but I'm not sure if there was a jet there, since there are no pictures or video to proof it. I just know that there was one jet somewhere near the caves, since everyone was yelling “JET JET". Here, Shazam, a part of YAK, even doubts Rage's claim! http://www.xfire.com/screenshots/128793327 . Also, Birdo took the tanks, and he was not jet. Here he says it: Gen.Hond{snp}: Did you take the 2nd tank that yak left? And how did they die?
WUSIleader.Birdosrus|>*<|: ya i took it
WUSIleader.Birdosrus|>*<|: it was int he crevice
WUSIleader.Birdosrus|>*<|: rage and someone else drove it there
WUSIleader.Birdosrus|>*<|: they jumped out and died
WUSIleader.Birdosrus|>*<|: the tank was about to die
WUSIleader.Birdosrus|>*<|: i hopped into it healed it a little
WUSIleader.Birdosrus|>*<|: and then drove it to the repair droid
WUSIleader.Birdosrus|>*<|: i think they died
WUSIleader.Birdosrus|>*<|: from jumping into the crevice
WUSIleader.Birdosrus|>*<|: you know that crevice?
WUSIleader.Birdosrus|>*<|: i PERSONALLY took both the tanks
So, no jet killed the pilots of the AAT. They jumped out of the tank, and we got control of it.
Here, even Epifire, who played for YAK, agrees that YAK took their AAT's to our base: http://www.swbfgamers.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7003.0;attach=2838;image. Here he says that we HAD a 40 man lead: http://www.swbfgamers.com/index.php?topic=7003.120. Rage admits in a post that he took the tank also. http://www.swbfgamers.com/index.php?topic=7003.120.
2. We did not use an extra amount of mercenaries on Harbour, if we did have more mercenaries then we were allowed, why didn't an admin address this during the battle? Why didn't YAK complain about this during the war so we could settle it better? Engel, Zero, Sonic, Josh02, FrenchFryz, Dirty Harry, Mart, Babyeater, and Jamman are playing for 212 in the ICW3.
Which rounds to 4 or 5 mercenaries, which were: Anyder, Wild, Elmotech, Jumper, and Nico.  http://www.xfire.com/screenshots/128781585, Josh02 left during the battle.
3. The AAT's attacked our main base, the pilots of the AAT's got out, and we killed them and took their tanks, later Phobos(rage), switched to our side, REP, and got one of the AAT tanks and destroyed it, allowing it to spawn back at the CIS base. We were up by like 40, but then that happened, which cost us a lot of tickets, also he died, wasting another one of our tickets. Here is proof:  http://www.xfire.com/screenshots/128781585, http://www.xfire.com/screenshots/128781597, http://www.xfire.com/screenshots/128781598. He said his actions were justified because a jet “took” the AAT from them, which is not true, even if it was, why would he not tell the admin, and ask if he could do it.
4. We did not use more players then YAK, the admins did not say anything during the battle either, also, Sirpimped said "Go on start", while Jamman said "We need to fix this", so I don't know what YAK was thinking. http://www.xfire.com/screenshots/128781574
5. Shazam says we took harbor from YAK, but later retracts his statement, which I do not think is very fair: http://www.swbfgamers.com/index.php?topic=7003.135. People continue to post even after he says "Please do not argue about yesterday's battles anymore.  What's done is done." And does not even follow his own advice. I personally think Shazam should be removed from the Admin job, or at least be removed from YAK so he cannot be bias anymore. Right after the war he said “YAK defends Harbour”, even before we had a chance to say anything, I failed to take a screenshot of the statement, though.
6. I saw the Video on Eddie's Kastel, where Sir pimped was glitching, he clearly shot at Birdo and tried to kill him, I don't see why he didn't just commit suicide. Here is the Video: . He knew what he was doing when he shot at Birdo from the glitch.
7. I think the players who cheated it should be punished, by being excluded from the tournament for this week’s battles. Rage for cheating by switching to our team and taking the tank from our base on Harbour, Nico for being a Jet on Harbour, and Sirpimped for glitching on Eddie’s Kastel. I think the outcomes, 212 winning on Harbour, and YAK winning on Eddie’s Kastel should stay the same.
8. YAK has no proof of any foul play, only that Nico used jet once, I see no screenshots or videos of a jet taking an AAT from CIS, while we have plenty of evidence of Rage cheating, having a fair number of players, and not going above the mercenary limit. The only “Proof” they have is Rage saying that a jet took the AAT, but we all know that might not be true.
9. Majesty kept cursing in the YAK vs 212 war on Mustafar, I think he should be punished and not be allowed to play for YAK because this is not the first time this has happened.
Quote from BlackScrop: **Birdosrus's allegations are not inconsistent, to the extent that they do not refute Rage's allegations, with what I saw.  I'll explain: (I believe this transpired after Nico stopped using jet) I saw a tank coming from an area near what Birdosrus would later describe as a crevice.  Birdosrus, spawned as a clone pilot, drove the tank to the tank-healing bot in front of the Republic's main command post.  But that doesn't mean that Rage's allegations are false, because the tank that came from the "crevice" was not the only tank there (there was another!) so it's possible that the tank from the mountain and the tank in the crevice are different.**
-A member of YAK, I believe Rage, switched to Republic to take a tank.
Birdo took both of the tanks himself, and he was not jet.
-Mart, have an excellent day.   
Both teams used bad names at the beginning, but they got booted and switched names, so I don't see how that would effect the end score.

[{PLA}gdh92]

I'll keep it simple;
Kastel - A simple accident by SirPimped - keep the result

Harbour - The worst game I've ever been a part of. Both teams acted terribly and cheated - rematch needed

Russia - The complicated one so I'll go with personal opinion - Only have a rematch if 212 members weren't marked as mercs to avoid the 2-1 rule.

I have no problem with Enten and UEF joining 1.0 or 212 (but only 1 team ). For the sake of this tournament I think of 1.0, YAK and 212 as teams not clans so they can recruit anyone who is not in another team as long as they don't change between teams that are still in.

Edit: To stop any mis-understanding: I meant I don't mind members of clans like Enten and UEF joining an active team, I'm not saying the whole of UEF/Enten should or has.

[Anyder]

I'll keep it simple;
Kastel - A simple accident by SirPimped - keep the result

Harbour - The worst game I've ever been a part of. Both teams acted terribly and cheated - rematch needed

Russia - The complicated one so I'll go with personal opinion - Only have a rematch if 212 members weren't marked as mercs to avoid the 2-1 rule.

I have no problem with Enten and UEF joining 1.0 or 212 (but only 1 team ). For the sake of this tournament I think of 1.0, YAK and 212 as teams not clans so they can recruit anyone who is not in another clan as long as they don't change between teams that are still in.

Prove sirpimped's glitch wasnt on purpose the way we proved he did on purpose please.
There shouldnt be rematches just cause of 3 guys not following rules (cheating), these players should be the only ones penalized.
1.0 and 212 roster is explained already, but if u want we can repost it as another 12th time...

UEF Isnt joining any clan, idk why ure inventing this ? Same for Enten...
So ill explain this: Some members from each clan decided to join 1.0 as the clan members number wasnt the best for 16vs16 funwars.

EDIT:

I personally think Shazam should be removed from the Admin job, or at least be removed from YAK so he cannot be bias anymore.

+1 <-----

[DEAGLE]

Kastel - all in all fair match. you can discuss on whether the wall thingy was by purpose or accident but in the end no one can proof anything. no rematch or punishments needed.

Harbour - wasn't part of it but from what I've read both teams did things they weren't supposed to; rematch needed in my opinion.

Russia - wasn't part of it either, the only problem seems to be the merc rule. Oven should clarify a rule which states if members of teams that dropped out can join a still existing team for the tournament as temporary members. Because there wasn't such a rule at the time the match was played, I wouldn't suggest a rematch.

[[FC]Elite]

Anyder, Oven said you can only post once. It's pretty obvious you don't know how to follow rules.

[Disciple]

Anyder: 1)None here is whining,Oven started the tread to see and understand what happened on those battles and from many diff players sides of view.

             2)None cares about how UEF works,we care about the rules.

             3)

You know sir pimped, i perfectly know why u (and the whole YAK Team) is mad and ,well ... , whining.
You lost in russia and Kamino, so as we took both, u cannot attack russia again, and due this u want the rematch. And with each post YAK's are asking for a Russia rematch, ure only proving me right.
That rule u want to be done, is cause u wanna win easier vs 1.0

             Blackscorpion is one of the admins for the ICW,he himself,said that a rematch on Russia would be tentative,so,please stop saying that we wanna win ''easier'' by only saying things that would support us.
         
             4)Even if SP did glitch (what i believe he didnt on pourpose),you managed to kill him and i cant see how that could change the course of the battle as our victory was by more than 1 ticket (if he had killed you).

             5) You say we want to post supporting only YAK,so how can you say that your clanmattes(who almost none knows which clan/clans you are in or reffering to) will ''speak the truth'' and not support you.

             6)I would suggest you to stop attacking people/clans in here,since you have almost got banned form the tournamnet

           

[WusiWild]

I was present for the Harbor and Russia battles so I'll just tell you guys what I saw. First we'll start with Russia. I believe we were defending Russia so from my understanding we could bring all the people we wanted. I wasn't aware of any of the roster rules or anything, I was just there to play. The whole battle was pretty much recon spam everywhere, which is pretty lame. I was hearing people calling to get rid of recons which I don't really think is fair due to other clans winning and losing when recons were allowed. I think that debate would be more proper when starting another tournament. Anyways, from what I understood the roster for 1.0 was legal because we enough 1.0 players compared to 212. I don't really see a reason for doing a rematch on Russia since the roster was followed correctly. Harbor was a complete different story. There were 3 major controversies on that map and it was: 212 using a jet, 212 without a legal roster, and YAK switching teams to destroy a tank. First with 212 using a jet. For the whole duration of that battle I was inside the caves basically. When the match first started I saw Nico playing as a jet. On teamspeak I told him to respawn and from what I knew I didn't see the jet again. Now the other story was that one of our jets took a tank. From what I was hearing from teamspeak the first tank that we captured came from over the mountain and fell down to our CP and the player bailed when it was low health and died. That was what I understood about the capture of the first tank. The second tank happened a few minutes later and from what I was hearing on our voice chat was that it also came over the mountain and fell into the crevice behind our CP. I'm not 100% certain who was in it or not as I was concentrating on the ice caves. As far as I know there wasn't a jet outside of the ice caves, and all of this happened after Nico understood the jet rule and switched units. After the second tank was taken, a YAK player (rage?) switched teams and took one of the CIS tanks and took it out of bounds so it would be destroyed and spawn back at their home base which really allowed YAK to come back into the game. I'm almost positive one of our players outside of the ice caves would have started yelling at someone to switch units, but after the start of the game I didn't see any jets or hear of any. The next issue is 212 using a illegal roster. From what I was told was that I needed to switch tags so that I could merc for 212. At the beginning of the match there were a bunch of people joining and some people were complaining about us having a bad roster. Gdh was booting people for having offensive names and then they said they were going to start once the buffer map ended. No admin or anything really told us to change our roster or the game wouldn't start. So with this we just started and the whole illegal roster thing came up after the battle on the forums. So that was my personal experience in both games that day. Now what Oven wants to know from us is who to blame. I suppose we'd have to blame ourselves at first for not having a legal roster, but if an admin isn't going to do anything about it it's not really going to get done. I guess I would blame the admins for not barking at us to get our roster straight. They pretty much just started the game without saying anything. On Russia, I don't know why there is even a controversy since the rosters were followed to my knowledge. What I personally think should be done? I don't think there should be a Russia rematch since there wasn't any wrong doing on our part. For Rhen var, basically the whole game was screwy and wasn't really organized or adminned very well. I'd say to just say what's done is done and move on and make sure the admins really get down on rosters being legal. I think a rematch would kinda overwhelm both sides with battles, and then if there was any wrongdoing we'd be at the same spot all over again. I'd just say from now on the admins need to make sure that they keep order and organization during the battles and make sure rosters are legal before even starting the match. Not really sure what happened with Pimp glitching but I guess that's for someone else to say what happened. But for now I suppose Rage and Nico would get a suspension for 2-3 weeks or something like that. That would be my two cents, this post is going to get mauled probably but cool. Hopefully we can advance and have some competitive battles without this nonsense.

[Oven]

Thanks for the posts so far; I'm really grateful. I'm going to read them all very carefully this evening, along with any other posts that are made by around 6-7 EST.

Anyder, if you want to make any more comments on the posts in here, just quote them in a PM to me. This is not a discussion thread, it's a thread for laying out what everyone knows for the benefit of the judge (me). The restriction to one post is important, because it incentivizes thoroughness.

FYI, Week 5 will not resume until next week, so that I have some time to make good decisions and so that if there are any rematches (open question), they can be done this weekend.

[-=(212) Nixo=-]

I was not there at any battles other than mustafar, but I have watched all the vids taken to give me an idea of what happened.
First battle - Mos Eisley, YAK clearly dominated this with way more players xD Outcome - agreed

Earth Russia - Recon spamming hell xD But this was the same for the end of the first and the majority of the second of Enten's battles with 1.0. Oven was present and allowed it so. People just got on with it.
The merc-members ratio is the issue raised - It has been proofed as a wrong accusation many times already. I don't possibly see how a rematch would be in order?!? Oven could state a rule against members of participated clans joining a participating clan but one has not been made therefore they did not brake any rules.

Harbour - The most hectic of the battles. Only one where there should be ANY controversy over.
Nico was unaware of the rules, it was one of his first battles, and as it was week 4 already we thought everyone was aware of the rules. Yes he spawned as a jet at the start. But it did not distrupt the battle in any way but maybe people shouting "JET!JET!". He quickly re spawned as another class.
Rage switched sides and getting into a tank, destroying it, therefore making it spawn again in the cis area, also loosing 212 a ticket which in that game the ticket wouldn't have mattered but the tank respawning did make a bigger difference. At the time 212 had a 40+ lead which was decreased by the tank.
Merc-members/acting members : The battle wouldnt have started if 212 had more than YAK, or it was started without an official count which I would say is the admins job and therefore their fault however harsh it may seem. A tip - don't be an admin if you do not know the rules and if you don't then learn them
Members/acting members: 9
Engel
Sonic
Mart
Josh02
Harry
Zer0
BabyEater
Jamman
FrenchFryz

Mercs : 5
Anyder
Jumper
Elmo
Wild
Nico

Therefore the ratio is 9:5 - which (rounded) would be 10:5 = 2:1, there is nothing wrong with that?
Concequently you would be deciding who gets the planet on the evidence given: Nico took a jet once, Rage swapped teams and stole a tank allowing it to respawn costing 212 tickets that if the game had been any closer would have lost 212 the match. There are other accusations but no proof.

Kamino - Fairly won, no problems from either side

Eddie's Kastel - Went smoothly aside from SirPimped glitching. The problem is that it is a lot easier than Sir Pimped made it look in his vid to get into the glitch. And on birdo's vid it shows SirPimped coming out of the wall at more of an angle and shooting at him as well, which to me, shows that he was not all as suprised as he makes it seem. In the glitch you can see through the wall. This would suggest SirPimped saw birdo coming (weather it was by accident or on purpose) and jumped out. However, this, luckily, had no effect on the battle.

Mustafar- There were no problems aside from Majesty. He cussed multiple times after being warned by Scorp.

Solutions :
Russia - No rematch required, everything was legit. Make your on mind up on recons. I dislike them, but they are in the rules and nothing is meant to be modded out of custom maps. If you say recons should be gone, maybe tanks should be modded out. They impose a influence on the side a team picks.

Harbour - No rematch. The rooster was fine. Nico took jet, it said in the rules that you get a warning and then a second time it is punished upon. There has never been anything like what Rage did before. I would say it is very unexcetable, it doesn't show much honour IMO. Just sort it out with an admin later if you feel it is that bad, don't act on it yourself. If you were to punish 212 by having a rematch just because Nico misunderstood and took jet (not effecting the game)...
A rematch only benefits YAK. Punish Nico individually if you must but not the whole team.
Rage cheated in stealing a tank, that is much worse and not tolerable.
If you would give a rematch you would be saying a jet that didn't affect the game is worse than someone cheating. As it only benefits YAK.

Eddie's Kastel - YAK defend it but make your own mind upon SirPimped glitching.

Mustafar - Majesty punished (however I believe he is out of YAK) so I do not know what could be done there.


Engel asked me to post this for him :

I was involve in all matches last weekend.
When YAK disagreed with  the enemy team, why did they said nothing before the match was started. Now that they argue is only devious. You knew, who played the game, also the admin knew that. But noone said anything in the match... Also in Mustafar no one said anything, was that the plan, too? That if YAK would loose, we will say that they didn't play fair? Only a sore loser would do that.
On harbor, we have two cheaters. One is a merc, called Nico (1.0 member) and the other is a member of YAK. Nico ignored the rule, why? He says ignorance (I asked him today on teamspeak). He also says, that he didn't kill a player with jet. There is no reason, that I don't believe him, because he is angry, that 212 and 1.0 threw him out in the matches at Sunday (too many players) and he says that he leaves 1.0 because of disrespect . The YAK member definitely know the rules, which he ignores (implying Rage). Was that a teamorder? Perhaps. The act of YAK is the major misdoing, because it was a full member that did it and he knew, what he did and perhaps it was a team order.
Second jet on harbor? YAK would say something in the gamechat, if there was a second jet .... They didn't...
Where is the evidence for the other things, all people know, how to take a screenshot....
Russia Battle: The Countdown ended and a sniper and a recon were at our spawnpoint. That could not  be!! The Admin must see that! The map isn't big. There is only one way.
Shazam should be not a admin, when he plays for YAK. That is how a VW (or General Motors) member is  minister of transport and environment. That makes no sense.  He is blased.